Queries :Physical Presence Calculation and Application Form

[JSPCAN]

Hi Seniors,

Query on Physical Presence :
I arrived in Canada in March 2018 and plan to apply for citizenship in May 2021.This will make it well over 1095 days even after I deduct the no. of days I was out of Canada. Do I still have to give the EXACT number of days/dates I was out of Canada ?

Facts:
From the time I became a PR I have travelled to USA 3 times and each trip was 4-5 days each. I am not sure about the exact number of days/date of the 3rd trip the stamps on my passport are very light and I don't have my travel tickets.

So it ok if I only mention about the 2 trips (for which I have the dates) and do not mention about the 3rd trip at all (which is just 4-5 days)? By the time I will apply I would anyways have accumulated well over 1095 days.

Basically trying to know that I hope I am not MISREPRESENTING facts if I am not able to provide the EXACT details but STILL MANAGE TO HAVE MORE THAN 1095 days.....OR.......Do I NECESSARILY have to give an EXACT COUNT of the trips and days out of Canada ?


Queries regarding Application Form for Citizenship Form CIT 0002:


1)
Question 5 mentions :List all names used :included names at birth /aliasas /nicknames:
Before coming to Canada I used :: First Name + Middle Name
In application for PR and thereafter on coming to Canada I used:: First Name + Middle Name + Family Name

So should I mention both the names in this question ??
-First Name & Middle Name (in Given Names)...leaving Family Name blank
-First Name & Middle Name in give names) + Family Name


2)
Question 9 mentions 5 year eligibility period:
Am I correct that my 5 year eligibility period starts ::FROM: 5yrs Backwards from date of filing Citizenship application...TO:Date of filing Citizenship Application

3)
Question 10 Asks to mention all the countries and addresses prior to the start of eligibility period where the applicant stayed for more than 183 days
I arrived in Canada in March 2018 as a PR ....prior to this all my life I was based in India as a Citizen. Never stayed anywhere outside India for more than 183 days.

So should I mention the answer as following ::
Country: India
Explanation: "I was living in India (as a Citizen) my country of origin prior to becoming a PR of Canada and this time falls within the 4 year period"...is this wording correct?


4)
Question 13 :I am a Citizen by Birth so under the Dates Obtained /Effective Date:.."yyyy/mm" ..
Am I correct to fill it as my date of birth....is that ok?

Regards
JSPCAN

 

[Seym]

Well, you have to do your best to give the exact information. Mistakes do happen frequently, and generally are no (or little?) problem if a buffer is good enough, but you still have to list a travel you know you did... It may not matter at the end of the day, but an omission on purpose is not exactly a mistake by omission.

You have a few months to gather that information anyway, you may want to request your CSBA travel history record, and/or do the same in US.
Maybe, since you're not a US citizen, via your i94 travel record? That one takes minutes only!
https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/I94/#/home

1) List both.
2) Yes.
3) Yeah it does the job. More than enough.
4) Yep.

 

[JSPCAN]

Thankyou Seym ,for your prompt response.

For Physical presence:
-I did try accessing the I-94 link https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/I94/#/home earlier too but it does not show my details which is very strange. I do know of this link and uptill 2019 it used to show my details so was never worried as I knew I can always access it but now its shows "No record found for traveler "
Is there anyway to contact them and get it corrected ?

-As far as CBSA goes....as per my limited knowledge the application form no.CIT 0002 (12-2019)E mentions that CBSA does not entertain travel history request .I dont know if there is a newer version to this form which allows it.


Pls advise.

Regards
JSPCAN



Seym

Well, you have to do your best to give the exact information. Mistakes do happen frequently, and generally are no (or little?) problem if a buffer is good enough, but you still have to list a travel you know you did... It may not matter at the end of the day, but an omission on purpose is not exactly a mistake by omission.

You have a few months to gather that information anyway, you may want to request your CSBA travel history record, and/or do the same in US.
Maybe, since you're not a US citizen, via your i94 travel record? That one takes minutes only!
https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/I94/#/home

1) List both.
2) Yes.
3) Yeah it does the job. More than enough.
4) Yep.

 

[dpenabill]

-As far as CBSA goes....as per my limited knowledge the application form no.CIT 0002 (12-2019)E mentions that CBSA does not entertain travel history request .I dont know if there is a newer version to this form which allows it.

There is a newer citizenship application. CIT 0002 (10-2020). This version MUST be used as of March.

The newer version eliminates some of the questions many applicants have. For example, there is no need to figure out what the eligibility period is. The applicant only enters the "TO" date for the eligibility period and the form automatically populates the "FROM" date five years prior. This is Item 9 in CIT 0002 (10-2020).

Additionally, if the "TO" date in Item 9 is any day other than the day BEFORE the date given for signing the application, the applicant will get an alert.

Of course the application needs to be completed in Acrobat pdf for these functions to properly work. But it is important to do this.


ACTUAL PHYSICAL PRESENCE and TRAVEL HISTORY:

Note that CIT 0002 (12-2019) did NOT prohibit the applicant from requesting a copy of the CBSA travel history from CBSA. It ASKED applicants to not contact CBSA for this information. Most applicants do not need this. Most applicants will have followed advice IRCC provides to immigrants to keep a travel journal so they have a complete record of each and every date they exited Canada, and each and every date they entered Canada.

Despite that "request," PRs could still request a copy of their CBSA travel history from CBSA. These records should (but will not necessarily) show all dates the PR entered Canada. This can help a prospective applicant reconstruct his or her travel history. BUT it is NOT enough.

As @Seym stated, "you have to do your best to give the exact information." It is indeed ON YOU to get it right, or at least as right enough that IRCC can rely on you to be an accurate reporter of the facts. Note, after all, YOU are the one and only person in the whole world who FOR-SURE was there each and every time you entered and exited Canada. YOU are the ONE BEST source of this information. If the one best source failed to keep complete records and does not get it right, that can make it difficult to meet the burden of proof. When the best source of evidence is incomplete or flawed, that hurts.

To be clear, the applicant needs to COMPLETELY and ACCURATELY report each and every border entry into Canada, and each and every border exit from Canada. Even if the applicant just took a quick drive over the Lewiston-Queenston bridge to fill up on cheap gas at Smokin' Joes on the New York side, and drove back.

Yes, everyone makes mistakes and thus more than a few make mistakes in filling out their travel history dates. IRCC does not ordinarily play gotcha-games so a minor mistake or even two is not a problem, unless it raises a question about whether the applicant met the minimum physical presence requirement. Falling short by one day MUST result in being denied. So the conventional wisdom is to apply with a decent buffer. Some suggest a mere week to ten days is enough. My view suggests at least a month extra, and then more for some (depending on personal circumstances and how solid their case is otherwise).

Multiple discrepancies between what the applicant reports and what IRCC figures out can be problematic EVEN IF the applicant has a good size buffer over the minimum. This is, again, about how much IRCC can rely on the applicant to be a reliable reporter. Perceptions about the applicant's credibility can be almost as important as meeting the requirements themselves.

If you need to estimate dates, be sure to be clear that is what you are doing. Minimize this as much as possible. If you estimate travel dates, probably a good idea to apply with a BIGGER margin.

 

[Seym]

@JSPCAN I actually gave it a shot myself following your answer and got a similar error. Weird...
Maybe you can go with the last suggestion here : https://help.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-1696?language=en_US#:~:text=If you're still not,to you within 72 hours.

Thanks @dpenabill for the detailed answer!

 

[JSPCAN]

Thanks SEYM for confirming that the US Immigration is having is indeed having a glitch. I was thinking that I am making some error which filling the form.

Thanks Dpenabill for updating me about the latest form no. CIT 0002 (10-2020). I agree with you and so I did dig out all my travel tickets to make a record of my entry and exits. And should be able to form a comlpete picture.

Queries:

1)Am I right that I need to count my days of presence in Canada ,even while on tourist visa made within the most recent past 5 years from the date of application ? Asking this as I visited Dec Canada in 2016

2)Am I correct that the date I enter or exist is counted as being PRESENT in Canada ,till the time it happens in the 24 hr period of that particular date ?

Regards
JSPCAN

 

[Seym]

1) Yes! The physical calculator will account for those too, as half a day, up to a full year. The careful approach would be to have a long enough buffer so you don't even need those additional days to reach the threshold, but you need to list them anyway.

2) Yep, going through the customs a few minutes before/after midnight still count as a full day.

 

[dpenabill]

2)Am I correct that the date I enter or exist is counted as being PRESENT in Canada ,till the time it happens in the 24 hr period of that particular date ?

2) Yep, going through the customs a few minutes before/after midnight still count as a full day.

I might misunderstand the question.

To be clear:

The online actual physical presence calculator will automatically and correctly count days. In particular, as long as the applicant completely and accurately enters the date on the calendar for each exit from Canada and each entry into Canada, the online calculator will correctly calculate the number of days credit the applicant has.

The date on the calendar changes at midnight. (Thus, for example, a "day trip" to the U.S. is no longer a "day trip" if the PR does not return to Canada BEFORE midnight.)

Number of hours outside Canada does not matter. What matters is the date on the calendar when the individual exited Canada, and the date on the calendar when the individual actually *ENTERS* Canada.

Entry into Canada does NOT occur until the individual actually clears border control. Thus, for example, if an individual arrives at the Pearson Airport, in Toronto, on a flight from abroad, the time the plane lands does NOT matter. What matters is the time the individual clears border control and is given actual authorization to physically "enter" Canada.

For another example: the "day trip" that goes long, even if the PR is in line for customs on the Canadian side of the Lewiston-Queenston Bridge BEFORE midnight, if it is one minute past midnight by the time the PR clears the border control, the date of entry is the NEXT day. In this example, both days still count as days in Canada (any part of a day in Canada means that counts as a day in Canada). But the online calculator will correctly count these days, again so long as the applicant correctly reports the actual date of exit and date of entry.

Date of departure is not so clear cut, since there is generally no exit control for travelers leaving Canada (with some exceptions, such as where the airport has U.S. customs clearing travelers for flights to the States). But generally if the flight is scheduled to depart before midnight, the individual should report exiting Canada on that day, the date on the calendar for which the flight is scheduled to depart, EVEN IF the actual departure is delayed past midnight. Just because the plane sits on the tarmac, even if still at the terminal, until well past midnight, it is the date of scheduled departure the individual should report as date of exit (with some variability allowing for delayed flights whose scheduled departure is officially revised until the next day, as in after midnight).

It is NOT as IF an applicant will be accused of misrepresentation for getting such things wrong. But for applicants cutting-it-close (applying with minimal margin), for situations in which single days could make a difference, it could make a difference.

The other thing to keep in mind, which apparently more than a few applicants get wrong, is that the date of arrival in a destination country is NOT necessarily the date of exit from Canada. Those exiting Canada on a red-eye flight will have exited Canada the day BEFORE they arrive at their destination abroad . . . and for those taking a Trans-Pacific flight departing in the evening, they will typically not arrive at their destination until TWO days after the date of departure from Canada.

In particular, passport stamps should NEVER be relied upon as definitively establishing the date of exit from Canada. They are good evidence of the dates of travel BUT NOT RELIABLE evidence of the precise date of exit. Again, date of entry into another country is NOT necessarily the date of exit from Canada.

In contrast, if a PR's passport is stamped upon arrival in Canada, that date is the date of arrival (though there have been reports of stamp date errors). Noting, however, that passport stamping upon arrival, for Canadians returning to Canada (both PRs and citizens), has been the exception for many years now.

This is NOT intended to suggest that getting things right to this degree of precision is critical. As I previously observed, IRCC does not ordinarily play gotcha-games so minor mistakes or discrepancies do not, not ordinarily, cause a problem. But we all make enough mistakes as is, so it is better to focus on getting things as right as possible. And of course the significance of such details will vary according to the individual's personal travel history, recognizing that an increased frequency of travel abroad increases the importance of getting the dates precisely right.

The main thing is to focus on getting the actual date of exit, and the actual date of entry, correct, and to for sure be complete, and then LET THE ONLINE PRESENCE CALCULATOR DO THE COUNTING.

 

[JSPCAN]

Thanks Seym and Dpenabill (for the detailed answere)

I have got hold of my tickets and will do a test run of the physical presence calculator . Out of the all 3 trips to US ,one side of each trip is on bus so entry/exit timings at the border are not sure at the moment. I will do it practically and keep you posted.

Regards
JSPCAN