Old PR, no card, no IMM 1000, working overseas for Canadian company

[aurora2014]

I left Canada just over 10 years ago and never actually received a PR card as they were only just being issued at the time I left. In the intervening period my IMM 1000 has also been destroyed.

I recently began considering moving back to Canada with my wife and child and discovered that legally-speaking, I'm still a permanent resident which should open some doors to me. I have entered Canada in the recent past without being challenged at immigration (I am from a visa-free country), but due to family obligations I am not able to simply enter Canada for two years (to meet the residency obligation) and try to pick up my life. Even if I could the lack of IMM 1000 seems destined to haunt me, I cannot renew my (now dormant) SIN card without having my IMM 1000 to hand. Furthermore, it's a requirement for obtaining a PR card but Immigration Canada no longer issues copies of the IMM 1000.

So I'm trying to see if working for a Canadian company will suffice or if I'll still be blocked by the lack of IMM 1000. If I have accumulated more than two years of work for a Canadian company, I should theoretically meet the residency requirements on the justice laws website.

But what then? If I reenter Canada after that time, can I just present myself to immigration officers at the port of entry and ask them to make a determination on the spot? Or should I simply enter Canada without saying anything and then apply to Citizenship & Immigration Canada? If I do that, how do I get around the lack of IMM 1000?

Or would it be easier to simply present myself at an embassy, cancel my permanent residency and attempt to immigrate from scratch?

 

[zardoz]

I left Canada just over 10 years ago and never actually received a PR card as they were only just being issued at the time I left. In the intervening period my IMM 1000 has also been destroyed.

I recently began considering moving back to Canada with my wife and child and discovered that legally-speaking, I'm still a permanent resident which should open some doors to me. I have entered Canada in the recent past without being challenged at immigration (I am from a visa-free country), but due to family obligations I am not able to simply enter Canada for two years (to meet the residency obligation) and try to pick up my life. Even if I could the lack of IMM 1000 seems destined to haunt me, I cannot renew my (now dormant) SIN card without having my IMM 1000 to hand. Furthermore, it's a requirement for obtaining a PR card but Immigration Canada no longer issues copies of the IMM 1000.

So I'm trying to see if working for a Canadian company will suffice or if I'll still be blocked by the lack of IMM 1000. If I have accumulated more than two years of work for a Canadian company, I should theoretically meet the residency requirements on the justice laws website.

But what then? If I reenter Canada after that time, can I just present myself to immigration officers at the port of entry and ask them to make a determination on the spot? Or should I simply enter Canada without saying anything and then apply to Citizenship & Immigration Canada? If I do that, how do I get around the lack of IMM 1000?

Or would it be easier to simply present myself at an embassy, cancel my permanent residency and attempt to immigrate from scratch?

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/certcopy.asp

The definition of "working for a Canadian company" is very strict. You have to be assigned to a full-time post from within Canada.

 

[aurora2014]

[Link deleted]

Thanks - the Verification of Status serves as a de facto replacement for the IMM 1000 then. When you apply for it does CIC also make a determination as to your residency status (as the title of the document would imply)?

The definition of "working for a Canadian company" is very strict. You have to be assigned to a full-time post from within Canada.

That's not actually what the law says though. Does having an interview conducted in Canada and a contract signed in Canada but the period of work actually beginning overseas count as "assigned from within Canada"?

I guess more importantly, are there any concrete examples of people who recently returned to Canada using employment at a Canadian company as counts-as residency without actually having been hired from within Canada?

 

[zardoz]

Thanks - the Verification of Status serves as a de facto replacement for the IMM 1000 then. When you apply for it does CIC also make a determination as to your residency status (as the title of the document would imply)?

That's not actually what the law says though. Does having an interview conducted in Canada and a contract signed in Canada but the period of work actually beginning overseas count as "assigned from within Canada"?

I guess more importantly, are there any concrete examples of people who recently returned to Canada using employment at a Canadian company as counts-as residency without actually having been hired from within Canada?

I don't believe that the VoS process tests your compliance with the RO. It's more a record recovery service.

Any discussion of whether your employment meets the exemption criteria would be between you, CIC and the appeal judge (if required). The rules are applied, based on the legislation in IRPR 61(c), but the actual practical interpretation will be determined by procedure and case law.

For greater clarity, read http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/op/op10-eng.pdf - Section 6.5

Good luck.

 

[scylla]

I guess more importantly, are there any concrete examples of people who recently returned to Canada using employment at a Canadian company as counts-as residency without actually having been hired from within Canada?

We haven't seen any examples of this on this forum that I can remember.

 

[Leon]

If you are unable to go to Canada and stay for two years without leaving, you can force immigration to make a determination about your status by applying for a PR travel document at a Canadian embassy using working for a Canadian employer as a reason why you still meet the RO.

If immigration accepts your reasoning and gives you a PR travel document, you can use it to go to Canada and apply for a PR card. As a PR, you must be residing in Canada in order to sponsor your family but you can apply to sponsor them right away.

If your travel document gets refused, you can appeal but if you don't appeal or lose the appeal, you would officially lose your PR. Then you would be free to apply for a new one from scratch if you qualify.

 

[Msafiri]

Thanks - the Verification of Status serves as a de facto replacement for the IMM 1000 then. When you apply for it does CIC also make a determination as to your residency status (as the title of the document would imply)?

Production of the VOS is not an examinable event so there is no RO review. Its merely a record of the historical facts which can't be changed that you once landed at POE A, on date B, under Immigration category C, with IMM number D etc.

....That's not actually what the law says though. Does having an interview conducted in Canada and a contract signed in Canada but the period of work actually beginning overseas count as "assigned from within Canada"?

I'm in agreement that the legislation does not say categorically that you must first be working in Canada then assigned abroad. The courts will look at the intention of the clause as per whomever drafted it in the Justice Dept. The phrase 'assigned to' figuratively does connote you are in place A then moved to Place B. In the context and likely spirit of the law place A is Canada and place B is Overseas.

I expect the courts to also consider the job in its totality in relation to the 'created as a way to avoid the RO' clause. Why were you selected for the role? Why was the role created? Who was in it before? Where were they based - in Canada? Do you actually have a job offer or are you looking as this creates a whole different ball game. Unless you have some specialized skill or bringing something unique expect the employer to want/ dig into your immigration status. What if the job requires travel? They expect you to have a PR Card. Sure you visit visa exempt passport is ok initially but eventually CBSA at Secondary Inspection will want to know why you haven't got a PR Card. Note too that there is a proposal for an ESTA type travel program which will require you to submit your details pre-flight. This scheme will eventually catch out PRs breaching the RO.

.....I guess more importantly, are there any concrete examples of people who recently returned to Canada using employment at a Canadian company as counts-as residency without actually having been hired from within Canada?

You are better seeking legal consultation after you have a job offer or description and know the company's situation vis a vis the requirements. This because this part of the RO Obligation is not your regular run of the mill stuff and you will get little mileage in the forum. The lawyer may have a better grounding on applicable case law though you can head over to the CanLii decision page and type 'Canadian Business' in the search field for the IAD/IRB. CIC are stepping up their game though and PRs that could have got away with business set ups in the early part of this decade or the latter part of the last one are unlikely to do so this time. CIC especially look at the taxation situation of the organization and if its loss making expect CIC to fight hard to get your PR revoked.

 

[steaky]

Even if I could the lack of IMM 1000 seems destined to haunt me, I cannot renew my (now dormant) SIN card without having my IMM 1000 to hand. Furthermore, it's a requirement for obtaining a PR card but Immigration Canada no longer issues copies of the IMM 1000.

You don't need your immigration papers in order to renew your SIN card. I reestablished residency and able to continue using it.

Also, does your child and spouse still have their IMM1000 and visa-exempted passport?

 

[aurora2014]

Thank you everyone, for your responses here. They are clarifying a lot of details for me and making it a lot easier to choose the right path.

To clarify a couple of points of my own:

Unless you have some specialized skill or bringing something unique expect the employer to want/ dig into your immigration status. What if the job requires travel?

I do indeed bring something unique to the table and my immigration status is not especially relevant to the job in question.

If immigration accepts your reasoning and gives you a PR travel document, you can use it to go to Canada and apply for a PR card. As a PR, you must be residing in Canada in order to sponsor your family but you can apply to sponsor them right away.

PRs can no longer sponsor family while outside of Canada?

If your travel document gets refused, you can appeal but if you don't appeal or lose the appeal, you would officially lose your PR. Then you would be free to apply for a new one from scratch if you qualify.

I'm thinking I might need to do this anyway and simply start a new application with my family. Waiting for CIC to make a determination of permanent residency on technical grounds that I don't even fully believe in myself seems like a poor way to plan for my future. I more than meet the requirements for FSW immigration and will probably go that route.

Speaking of which - and apologies for it being off-topic in this forum - are prospective immigrants judged by "pass/fail" on the points system? By which I mean, does the score actually matter once you've passed 67? The reason I'm asking is that I can get a passing score with very little effort, but getting a high passing score would necessitate sending my Master's degree to Canada for credential assessment (though I already have a Canadian Bachelor's degree and CEGEP diploma), traveling to another country to take a French test for the 4 points for second language etc... It wouldn't really be worth it if the extra points don't help, and it would be actively detrimental if applications are actually accepted in order of receipt (I would be able to submit MUCH sooner if I don't have to do these things).

You don't need your immigration papers in order to renew your SIN card. I reestablished residency and able to continue using it.

Also, does your child and spouse still have their IMM1000 and visa-exempted passport?

I didn't specify but my spouse and child have never been immigrants in Canada. And if you were able to continue using your SIN card after a long absence you were lucky. I believe SIN cards that have been unused for over five years are made dormant and to reactivate them you need to present documentation: either a valid PR card or IMM 1000 for PRs (according to the documentation requirements on Service Canada's website).

Thanks again, everyone.

 

[steaky]

I didn't specify but my spouse and child have never been immigrants in Canada. And if you were able to continue using your SIN card after a long absence you were lucky. I believe SIN cards that have been unused for over five years are made dormant and to reactivate them you need to present documentation: either a valid PR card or IMM 1000 for PRs (according to the documentation requirements on Service Canada's website).

I could not find the webpage on the Service Canada website which said you need documentation to reactivate the SIN card nor the number itself would be dormant if unused for over 5 years. However, the website does say SIN cards that are not expired and are currently in circulation can still be used.

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/sc/sin/index.shtml

 

[Leon]

PRs can no longer sponsor family while outside of Canada?

I'm thinking I might need to do this anyway and simply start a new application with my family. Waiting for CIC to make a determination of permanent residency on technical grounds that I don't even fully believe in myself seems like a poor way to plan for my future. I more than meet the requirements for FSW immigration and will probably go that route.

Speaking of which - and apologies for it being off-topic in this forum - are prospective immigrants judged by "pass/fail" on the points system? By which I mean, does the score actually matter once you've passed 67? The reason I'm asking is that I can get a passing score with very little effort, but getting a high passing score would necessitate sending my Master's degree to Canada for credential assessment (though I already have a Canadian Bachelor's degree and CEGEP diploma), traveling to another country to take a French test for the 4 points for second language etc... It wouldn't really be worth it if the extra points don't help, and it would be actively detrimental if applications are actually accepted in order of receipt (I would be able to submit MUCH sooner if I don't have to do these things).

As far as I can remember, PR's have had to be residing in Canada in order to sponsor family. Citizens can sponsor immediate family (spouse and dependent children) while living outside Canada but if they do, they must show proof of an intended move to Canada once their family gets PR. Getting away with something is a different story alltogether. Of course there have been PR's who applied to sponsor family while not residing in Canada but if immigration suspects that this is the case, they will at some point send you a letter and ask you to prove that you have been residing in Canada since you applied. If you can't prove that, you would lose your application.

In order to apply for a new PR, you must first officially lose your existing PR. A good way to do that would be to apply for a PR travel document. You could also send a letter stating that you don't meet the RO, have no excuse and want to renounce your PR.

As far as I know, there is no preference given to FSW applicants with more points. However, if you are right at the 67 mark, immigration may want to re-calculate and if you miscalculated, it may put you under the mark.

 

[aurora2014]

I could not find the webpage on the Service Canada website which said you need documentation to reactivate the SIN card nor the number itself would be dormant if unused for over 5 years. However, the website does say SIN cards that are not expired and are currently in circulation can still be used.

Sorry Steaky, I can't post links but I found it a few days ago. There are other posts on this website about the issue so it is a real problem - even for Canadians who've left for more than a few years.

As far as I can remember, PR's have had to be residing in Canada in order to sponsor family. Citizens can sponsor immediate family (spouse and dependent children) while living outside Canada but if they do, they must show proof of an intended move to Canada once their family gets PR. Getting away with something is a different story alltogether. Of course there have been PR's who applied to sponsor family while not residing in Canada but if immigration suspects that this is the case, they will at some point send you a letter and ask you to prove that you have been residing in Canada since you applied. If you can't prove that, you would lose your application.

I uh, "know a guy" who sponsored someone once while he was out of Canada as a permanent resident. But it was a long time ago, in the days of Returning Resident Permits which seems "count as" time in Canada for legal purposes.

In order to apply for a new PR, you must first officially lose your existing PR. A good way to do that would be to apply for a PR travel document. You could also send a letter stating that you don't meet the RO, have no excuse and want to renounce your PR.

Ugh. I can see this is going to take some time. My country of residence doesn't even have a real consulate so I anticipate problems ahead when it comes to voluntarily relinquishing this thing. Especially as I can't remember any of the details on it (number, date, etc).

As far as I know, there is no preference given to FSW applicants with more points. However, if you are right at the 67 mark, immigration may want to re-calculate and if you miscalculated, it may put you under the mark.

I'm a good bit above the mark, so it shouldn't be a problem. I am going to try and run the FSW application in parallel with the PRTD, because judging from other people on this board, the existing PR status isn't actually a block to FSW application going through, merely a delay, and delaying further my application might mean my NOC gets filled up.

Thanks again for all the advice.

 

[Leon]

I'm a good bit above the mark, so it shouldn't be a problem. I am going to try and run the FSW application in parallel with the PRTD, because judging from other people on this board, the existing PR status isn't actually a block to FSW application going through, merely a delay, and delaying further my application might mean my NOC gets filled up.

Thanks again for all the advice.

If you want to try to speed up the loss of your PR, write on the PRTD that you don't actually wish for a PRTD, you realize you don't meet the RO, have no excuse and want to renounce your PR as you are applying again under FSW.

 

[Msafiri]

......I'm a good bit above the mark, so it shouldn't be a problem. I am going to try and run the FSW application in parallel with the PRTD, because judging from other people on this board, the existing PR status isn't actually a block to FSW application going through, merely a delay, and delaying further my application might mean my NOC gets filled up...Thanks again for all the advice.

This plan depends on whether the visa post will cover themselves by not processing any FSW application until you are officially not a PR. The visa post could delay FSW until the 60 day appeal timeline is over. Depends on how the visa officer handles the latest clause in the IRPA accepting loss of status upon notification...its a grey area case law wise as I am yet to see a decision on this basis and if the visa post is busy or not used to the new clause they may derail your plans.

 

[aurora2014]

This plan depends on whether the visa post will cover themselves by not processing any FSW application until you are officially not a PR. The visa post could delay FSW until the 60 day appeal timeline is over. Depends on how the visa officer handles the latest clause in the IRPA accepting loss of status upon notification...its a grey area case law wise as I am yet to see a decision on this basis and if the visa post is busy or not used to the new clause they may derail your plans.

I don't mind an overall delay in obtaining a favorable immigration decision. My only concern is whether or not my NOC will fill up while waiting for my old PR relinquishment to be processed. Does anyone know the score in this regard?

I'm beginning to feel like I might have a real problem with this. I live in Taiwan and the visa office here isn't a real visa office at all and Hong Kong actually processes visa applications. They've got this VAC (visa application center) which is basically a third party installed within the visa office to skim additional fees off of applicants and make sure my application is complete (which it won't be).

The info page about VACs says use of a VAC is voluntarily. Hong Kong's visa application page says that VAC use is mandatory. There's absolutely no way of speaking to a human being in the office (what a fantastic job - how do I apply?). Of course, it's all a bunch of fees on top of fees (VAC use, PRTD fee, bank fee for bank draft) and yet to cap it all off the relinquishment of PR is actually free of charge.

Worse, because I don't have my original IMM1000 it's like I'm asking for trouble. I don't know my old case number and can't provide any useful information to get this thing moving. Is it possible it would be better to just wait for CIC to notify me themselves?