My Citizenship Related Questions: RQ, CIT0520 bans, waiting and more...

[Rayan14]

Have lived in Canada since 2003. It has been roughly 46 months since I sent in my citizenship application. I was issued the dreaded RQ in late 2012. Passed the test/interview successfully some time in winter of 2014. Got a CIT0520 this July/Aug. They're asking for expired passports and why a few foreign trips were not declared. I don't have the expired passports any more. I can't produce them. Didn't declare the trips since I didn't have the expired passport in my possession (it was lost) to consult in order to declare the short trips. I haven't visited the home country. Have studied, worked and generally been a good member of the society.

Questions:
1- How do I prove to these #$6&$s I don't have the expired passports? Have sent them written proof of it. They don't buy it. They keep asking for it. An Affidavit? What do I do?

2- Can a citizenship officer actually ban an applicant from re-applying for so many years? Or is that decision up to a citizenship judge? If so, can that decision be appealed? — "I haven't been banned but am wondering per their letter saying an applicant can be banned from reapplying if he is found to have misled the CIC... Blah blah blah"

3- What, if any, options do I have to get a final decision (either one will be okay with me at this point) from the CIC? How much longer am I gonna be tortured?

4- My latest ATIP indicates I don't need a Cj hearing. I was told the same during my post test interview. But now I am wondering will I be at this point facing a CJ?

Any general advice or help is truly appreciated.

Have a great weekend

 

[Msafiri]

The good news is that all CIC want is to clarify a few dates and they will schedule your oath real quick. The bad news is that frauds have masked absences/ declared fraudulent presence by conveniently losing/destroying passports so CIC by default is suspicious of applicants who don't have their passports especially those covering the qualifying residence period. They doubt a couple of declared dates so they won't let this slide. How many physical presence days did you declare? If you are on 1095 or on the tightest of margins say up to 1100 days then the 'suspect' dates may very well take you below the 1095 days and into refusal territory. Your situation isn't helped by the fact that the application form you submitted back in 2012 bears very little resemblance to that being submitted today which requires much more evidential proof of residence in Canada. -

1- How do I prove to these #$6&$s I don't have the expired passports? Have sent them written proof of it. They don't buy it. They keep asking for it. An Affidavit? What do I do?

Which countries did you travel to? Search posts by handle 'eileenf' her signature line has a resource which includes a section on obtaining entry/exit records from various countries equivalence to CBSA in case you travelled to this or are a citizen of a country on the list. These could help you out. Check the current citizenship application form. It lists documents which support declared residence - NOAs, health records, employment letters, T4s, school transcripts etc. What did you submit on the initial CIT 0171 RQ? How did these documents cover the suspect dates?

2- Can a citizenship officer actually ban an applicant from re-applying for so many years? Or is that decision up to a citizenship judge? If so, can that decision be appealed? — "I haven't been banned but am wondering per their letter saying an applicant can be banned from reapplying if he is found to have misled the CIC... Blah blah blah"

CIC will refuse the application. Depending on the reason for refusal and if there are legal proceedings (if fraud/misrepresentation CIC will go after you hard) you can be prevented from applying for 5 years as per SCCA.

3-What, if any, options do I have to get a final decision (either one will be okay with me at this point) from the CIC? How much longer am I gonna be tortured?

You can apply to the Federal Courts for a writ of Mandamus that will compel CIC to decide your case. Type Writ of Mandamus in the search function there are plenty of threads on this.

4- My latest ATIP indicates I don't need a Cj hearing. I was told the same during my post test interview. But now I am wondering will I be at this point facing a CJ?

Its possible that CIC just refuses the case if you don't get them the information they need and refer this to a CJ to make a final decision. If CJ decides for you CIC will appeal and this goes before the courts.

The other option applicants with 'challenging applications' have is to withdraw the problematic application and re-apply if they qualify now and have all the documentation. CIC is processing applicants in as little as 4 months in the GTA. This may be a faster route than taking the risk of refusal and a Judicial Process usually in favour of CIC where its doubtful the applicant has at least 1095 days of physical days residence.

 

[Rayan14]

Thanks for your detailed response. They really helped.

To answer your questions I would say that my travels were all to Europe and the United States for leisure purposes. None to the country of birth.

I had included a litany of documents with my original RQ including student records, landlord's letter, health records, tax forms, .... etc. I have since resubmitted all those (their updated versions) with my CIT0520 again. I was in school at the time of those undeclared trips so I was always back to school and paid my tuition and such. I also have records of paying rent, doctors' visits and tax forms. That's how it would cover the suspect dates. No?

I also must say that I am not trying to defraud or mislead the CIC. I simply didn't have the relevant travel documents to consult when filling in all travel dates. According to the CIC I am short of 1095 days, but I believe I wasn't. Now it's their word against mine. I get that.

I had heard that withdrawing a citizenship application is not a wise choice since it takes away one's right to appeal and so on. Moreover withdrawing an application will even bring more scrutiny from the CIC on the new case. So in light of these challenges, why Should I even consider to withdraw?

Thanks again for taking the time to reply. Much appreciated.

 

[Msafiri]

That much travel will be difficult to get travel records for in the regular (45 days) timeline CIC want the information. For the US you can get I-94 data - again search function will have the details. Depending on your citizenship the European records data may be problematic especially for the EU states as many e.g the UK don't stamp their nationals.

Withdrawing the current application doesn't necessarily affect future applications especially if its over a 'shortfall in days' issue and there is no blatant fraud which in this case it doesn't seem to be since CIC wouldn't be just issuing you a CIT 520 but there would be some RCMP action. Plenty of people on this forum withdraw and re-apply often with success. They compare the hassle of providing proof, this proof being in a format and type that is indisputable evidence of physical presence versus re-applying. In the past when processing times were 2 years or more then it made sense to stick it out. Now you can get your citizenship in 4 months. It all comes down to your appetite for risk. Are you willing to see the CJ? Are you willing to take the risk that the CJ decides to apply the strict physical residence days test? Are you willing to appeal and go to court if this happens? Are you willing to accept that the courts may decide with CIC? Even if the CJ sides with you on a centralized mode residence test are you ready for CIC to appeal this before the courts.

If you re-apply now you are guaranteed your citizenship as things are in your hands. If you fight CIC you may or may not get it. Which route do you prefer? Do you want to be a citizen now or in x months/years down the line however that long may be? I think that if CIC are giving you a hard time despite the vast information you've provided which to me seems to easily confirm dates they feel confident they can see this through to the courts....maybe its a case of who blinks first...it's unfair to you and it sucks but the burden of proof that you have the 1095 days is on you not CIC so you are already on the back foot. Read through the forum - check threads with CJ hearing/ short on days etc in their title and see what the typical outcome is...the recurring theme is that few succeed and those that do take a long long time to get there often at great stress and expense! I suggest applying for your GCMS notes under the ATIP process to see the discrepancy in days/ any notes on file. in regards to the communication with CIC is this with a specific person? Have you considered seeking legal advice? Maybe the owner of this forum can discuss with you chances of taking this forward.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do!

 

[Rayan14]

That much travel will be difficult to get travel records for in the regular (45 days) timeline CIC want the information. For the US you can get I-94 data - again search function will have the details. Depending on your citizenship the European records data may be problematic especially for the EU states as many e.g the UK don't stamp their nationals.

Withdrawing the current application doesn't necessarily affect future applications especially if its over a 'shortfall in days' issue and there is no blatant fraud which in this case it doesn't seem to be since CIC wouldn't be just issuing you a CIT 520 but there would be some RCMP action. Plenty of people on this forum withdraw and re-apply often with success. They compare the hassle of providing proof, this proof being in a format and type that is indisputable evidence of physical presence versus re-applying. In the past when processing times were 2 years or more then it made sense to stick it out. Now you can get your citizenship in 4 months. It all comes down to your appetite for risk. Are you willing to see the CJ? Are you willing to take the risk that the CJ decides to apply the strict physical residence days test? Are you willing to appeal and go to court if this happens? Are you willing to accept that the courts may decide with CIC? Even if the CJ sides with you on a centralized mode residence test are you ready for CIC to appeal this before the courts.

If you re-apply now you are guaranteed your citizenship as things are in your hands. If you fight CIC you may or may not get it. Which route do you prefer? Do you want to be a citizen now or in x months/years down the line however that long may be? I think that if CIC are giving you a hard time despite the vast information you've provided which to me seems to easily confirm dates they feel confident they can see this through to the courts....maybe its a case of who blinks first...it's unfair to you and it sucks but the burden of proof that you have the 1095 days is on you not CIC so you are already on the back foot. Read through the forum - check threads with CJ hearing/ short on days etc in their title and see what the typical outcome is...the recurring theme is that few succeed and those that do take a long long time to get there often at great stress and expense! I suggest applying for your GCMS notes under the ATIP process to see the discrepancy in days/ any notes on file. in regards to the communication with CIC is this with a specific person? Have you considered seeking legal advice? Maybe the owner of this forum can discuss with you chances of taking this forward.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do!

Again thanks very much for your detailed response. I think you may be correct. I shall seek the advice of a lawyer next week.
And yes, I have been communicating with the very person who has issued the CIT0520 to me. And no I don't want to go through that painful course of actions. I don't have the time or the appetite for them. I think I will see what another lawyer has to say on this matter. Perhaps my best option is to withdraw, wait a few weeks (?) to re-apply?

Thank you again.

 

[Msafiri]

Did the person issuing the CIT0520 give you a final deadline? Tell him/her in writing (politely) that you've given all you have and make reference to the huge volume of material provided and that this more than adequately covers the qualifying residence period. There are people who genuinely lose their passports e.g theft when on vacation and in fairness to you the documents provide seem to show strong evidence of physical presence. Did you report the passport lost? Is there a police report? Did you get a new passport issued? Do you have your CBSA record of entries into Canada? This will also show US land exits from a certain date. How many days are in question? How many days did you declare in your application? Is it one passport missing or multiple passports missing that cover the questionable days? Based on his/her response you can use this in your decision making. Its finding a balance between withdrawing (if you don't have to) as opposed to him/her saying ok you did your best and this is good enough for me. If you've withdrawn at that stage then you lose out...these CIC mind games eh!!

 

[Rayan14]

Did the person issuing the CIT0520 give you a final deadline? Tell him/her in writing (politely) that you've given all you have and make reference to the huge volume of material provided and that this more than adequately covers the qualifying residence period. There are people who genuinely lose their passports e.g theft when on vacation and in fairness to you the documents provide seem to show strong evidence of physical presence. Did you report the passport lost? Is there a police report? Did you get a new passport issued? Do you have your CBSA record of entries into Canada? This will also show US land exits from a certain date. How many days are in question? How many days did you declare in your application? Is it one passport missing or multiple passports missing that cover the questionable days? Based on his/her response you can use this in your decision making. Its finding a balance between withdrawing (if you don't have to) as opposed to him/her saying ok you did your best and this is good enough for me. If you've withdrawn at that stage then you lose out...these CIC mind games eh!!

No final deadline. But my latest ATIP indicates 'non compliance' in my response and what not.
Yes. There is a Cdn gov't issued letter (twice) supporting my statement that my previous (blue cover) travel document is no longer in existence. The travel document(s) was returned to the issuing authority upon expiry per their official policy/instruction. However the CIC person doesn't seem to accept that for some reason, which I don't know why. I do have my cbsa report. It is one that covers the suspected dates. I wish I had made copies of my previous expired travel document. I didn't and returned it as instructed.
I have written to the CIC person in question twice or even three times saying my response to the original CIT520 stands. And I apologized (and explained further) if my response to RQ seemed as though I was misleading them and said it was never my intention... Blah blah blah... Part of me thinks I did provid those 8 undeclared leisure trips on a separate sheet, but they have lost it. I don't want to speculate. But I m guessing here. And yes, I have copies of everything.
I declared 1096 days. They claim I have 1011+ days. But overall the discrepancy hinges on a 45-46 day gap I believe from what I have seen in numerous ATIP reports.

I don't know what to do. Withdraw or stay the course. I am getting tired of their 'mind games' for sure. What do you think?

Thanks much.

 

[Rayan14]

Did the person issuing the CIT0520 give you a final deadline? Tell him/her in writing (politely) that you've given all you have and make reference to the huge volume of material provided and that this more than adequately covers the qualifying residence period. There are people who genuinely lose their passports e.g theft when on vacation and in fairness to you the documents provide seem to show strong evidence of physical presence. Did you report the passport lost? Is there a police report? Did you get a new passport issued? Do you have your CBSA record of entries into Canada? This will also show US land exits from a certain date. How many days are in question? How many days did you declare in your application? Is it one passport missing or multiple passports missing that cover the questionable days? Based on his/her response you can use this in your decision making. Its finding a balance between withdrawing (if you don't have to) as opposed to him/her saying ok you did your best and this is good enough for me. If you've withdrawn at that stage then you lose out...these CIC mind games eh!!

So were I to withdraw my application tomorrow, what are the chances of new application's success? What are the chances of getting an RQ again? And how long will this new RQ processing take? 1 year? 2 years!? 3? What are the odds?

Thank you.