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Is Canada wasting its well-educated immigrants(e.g. Ph.D.)?

eliteqing

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Nov 26, 2012
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I have finished my Ph.D. in Canada and applied for PR afterwards. But I feel I am wasted in Canada right now.

After my Ph.D. program in Canada, I realize basically there are two options for me to continuously use my knowledge: find a R&D position in the company/government, or find a faculty position. Faculty position is tough for everyone including native Canadians, Thus I plan to work for a R&D department in the company or government. However, I have applied and received interviews from quite a few appropriate positions, but there is one thing they always asked is "Are you a Canadian Citizen?". Well, sometime they beautifully asked this question in other ways, such as how long have you been in Canada, or what is your status in Canada, or can you get a secret security clearance? That is because government positions give priority (actually only to) to Canadian citizens, whereas company R&D positions are opened mainly because these companies received government contracts, which again will require the secret security clearance attaches with the contracts. Or companies will consider the potential of future government contracts and decide only recruit Canadians, not PR or work-permit holders.

Except the well-commercialized subjects (such as computer sciences), most other subjects like mine have their jobs come from the government, directly or indirectly. Such government-driven positions are restricted by security clearance or "priority to Citizen" policy, which cannot be satisfied by new immigrants. We usually need to wait for about five years to be eligible from PR, while this five years are prime for the career development. Most Ph.D. has no choice but work as post-doc (like me) or accept a low-level position without really using their Ph.D. expertise. If we PH.D.s cannot find a position to utilize the knowledge we have learned, then Canada why are you keeping us here? Do you want we pursue our PhD degree for a such a long time, only going to do some basic office work, and waste all the time and resource used to train us?

I finished my Bachelor degree and Master degree in my home country, both of which are top three in a country with 40 times population of Canada. Most of my classmates became research scientists in R&D dept. of big companies/national research labs or faculties in universities with their own research teams and adequate research grants. I believe I am equally good as them, but I chose to come Canada for its freedom. I am writing my experience not for showing off but try to say I can be competitive. However, I cannot thrive in Canada here because of these restrictions.

Work for some kind of relevant jobs would still be lucky, I found there are so many PH.D. of different areas who turns out to have no jobs and stay at home, or work for subway, TimHorton, The Bay's (shopping guide), or something totally irrelevant to their PH.D degree. Some people may argue that PH.D. have their own problems, such as the difficult of their Ph.D. topic in solving real-world problem, their narrowed down scopes thus job choices, picky on jobs, worse personal skills, which lead to their struggle in job market. I admit that, but the proportion of such PHDs is so high in the people I know and I heard, that I feel it is not because of the personal or subject reasons, it is more a common phenomenon. It is more caused by language, culture, environment barriers that impede foreign Ph.D.s from finding an ideal job and exploit our skills. More importantly, policies such as the "priority to Canadians" and "security clearance" are obvious factors that even attenuate the chance of Ph.D. immigrants to thrive in Canada. I understand the importance of the "priority to Canadians" and "security clearance" polices, but it is the truth that well-educated immigrants are wasting due to these polices. Also, there is a lot things the government could do to help Ph.D.s to best utilize their expertise to serve this country.

What is your insights? please share your comments/suggestions/stories.
 

Bs65

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Mar 22, 2016
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Going back to topic it was the OPs decision to pursue a PHD so you would expect someone with that level of intellect to have researched the job market.

But hey I guess as with any student whether PHD or not the promise of attaining the Canadian dream is too much to do some simple research to find that ultimately immigration is more about sustaining population levels and not about providing jobs for everyone. The job market is flooded with various levels of graduates both Canadians and new PRs plus add to that the very generous study permits followed by even more generous post graduate work permits is no surprise the graduate job market is the way it is.

As for government departments prioritising Canadian citizens due to security this is fairly common in many countries, likely even in the OPs home country. Even without this we could get into the lacking 'Canadian experience' obstacle but that is a whole different debate.
 

foodie69

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Dec 18, 2015
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PH D is wasted here..you much rather learn a trade like plumber, electrician or carpenter. Tiny student loan, if any, and plenty of work with a nice hourly rate and overtime. You never see a plumber driving taxi or flipping burgers at Mcd. .
 

nope

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Oct 3, 2015
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There is no such thing as a 'PhD' -- there are subject-specific PhDs, and the market for these varies extremely. It is quite common for PhDs of all types to have no job, it is a highly specialized degree that has the effect of making you competitive for the highest-level jobs, but too specialized to compete for mid-level positions.

Tenure-track positions in Canada, even in non-research-based colleges, are highly prized. Whether you will get one depends a lot on where you did your PhD, and with whom. In my field, a PhD from the University of Toronto gives you a chance; a PhD from Memorial University, not so much.

It's interesting that you came here for the 'freedom' -- I did too, I lived in an Asian country for many years. There, a PhD truly is a ticket to a better life; but a lot of the reason for that is because the lower classes are strongly exploited, and this causes money to flow 'upwards' in society, into elite institutions. If you're a member of the elite, you'll do well. Here in Canada, there is more equality, and there are no tickets to making yourself upper class that don't depend on merit.
 

thejkhan

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Jun 5, 2016
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OP why do you feel so entitled that Canada owes you something? It was your choice to come and do PhD here and you had to convince the VO that you will return to your country, so you must have had plans to make use of your PhD skills back home. Or maybe you didn't have such plans.. did you fool yourself or the VO?
 

Leon

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foodie69 said:
PH D is wasted here..you much rather learn a trade like plumber, electrician or carpenter. Tiny student loan, if any, and plenty of work with a nice hourly rate and overtime. You never see a plumber driving taxi or flipping burgers at Mcd. .
I have to second that. There is an education inflation going on in Canada. Everybody encourages their kids to go to university causing a shortage of tradesmen. Learn a trade and you will not have a problem. You make good money, you have no student loans. You can be your own boss if you want.

As for your situation now, Canada is not keeping you here. You are free to leave if that is what you want. If you want to stay, make a plan. Do the post.doc jobs that you feel are beneath you until you get citizenship and then go for the jobs that require it. Or you could retrain as a plumber :)
 

deadbird

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Jan 9, 2016
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Leon said:
I have to second that. There is an education inflation going on in Canada. Everybody encourages their kids to go to university causing a shortage of tradesmen. Learn a trade and you will not have a problem. You make good money, you have no student loans. You can be your own boss if you want.

As for your situation now, Canada is not keeping you here. You are free to leave if that is what you want. If you want to stay, make a plan. Do the post.doc jobs that you feel are beneath you until you get citizenship and then go for the jobs that require it. Or you could retrain as a plumber :)
I feel like most PhD students take an elitist perspective; everyone else is somehow beneath them. Reality check, you are not superior unless you can prove your value/worth to the world. One might argue that PhD students might be qualified in deep intellectual pursuits but really lacking in adding value to society. It is this society that you are trying to immigrate into. Please be respectful. Not arrogant and elitist.

Btw, you can call me Dr Deadbird.
 

Leon

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deadbird said:
I feel like most PhD students take an elitist perspective; everyone else is somehow beneath them. Reality check, you are not superior unless you can prove your value/worth to the world. One might argue that PhD students might be qualified in deep intellectual pursuits but really lacking in adding value to society. It is this society that you are trying to immigrate into. Please be respectful. Not arrogant and elitist.

Btw, you can call me Dr Deadbird.
I once asked a PhD who just graduated if you had to be smart to get a PhD and he said no, it's just a job. I heard from other students that he had been a mediocre student and if they had to vote who'd be most unlikely to achieve something, they would have picked him. He lucked out and found a very nice professor to do a masters with and he in turn found him some other very nice professors for him to do a PhD with.
 

nope

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Oct 3, 2015
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A PhD requires one of two things to complete: love of a subject, or determination. As far as its value over a masters, the PhD is supposed to be based on performing independent research -- however, it doesn't really provide any information as to the value of that research. It's not accurate to assume that someone with a PhD is 'valuable' to society (which is usually measured by having a job), any more than with any other formal qualification. There has been quite a bit of PhD creep in latter years, as evidenced by the number of community colleges who advertise jobs as 'master's required, PhD preferred'. Every time I see one of those I wonder why they want to hire a teacher who would prefer to be doing research . . .
 

747-captain

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nope said:
A PhD requires one of two things to complete: love of a subject, or determination. As far as its value over a masters, the PhD is supposed to be based on performing independent research -- however, it doesn't really provide any information as to the value of that research. It's not accurate to assume that someone with a PhD is 'valuable' to society (which is usually measured by having a job), any more than with any other formal qualification. There has been quite a bit of PhD creep in latter years, as evidenced by the number of community colleges who advertise jobs as 'master's required, PhD preferred'. Every time I see one of those I wonder why they want to hire a teacher who would prefer to be doing research . . .
The value or necessity of a PhD depends mostly on the subject in question. In STEM fields (specifically in the applied sciences such as engineering and technology), a PhD helps ONLY if you're going into Research or Academia. Otherwise in my opinion it is a total waste of 4 to 7 years of your life. A Masters is the best value, although it only offers a slight advantage over a Bachelors with experience.

In STEM areas such as Physics, Mathematics etc. a PhD might be more valuable. However fields such as the social sciences, the arts etc. a PhD is almost a necessity to get a decent job in a related area of your expertise. Of course, I'm not an expert on the Canadian job market, which I understand is a 100 times worse than the U.S. market. I'm only speaking from my experience in America.
 

McClane

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747-captain said:
The value or necessity of a PhD depends mostly on the subject in question. In STEM fields (specifically in the applied sciences such as engineering and technology), a PhD helps ONLY if you're going into Research or Academia. Otherwise in my opinion it is a total waste of 4 to 7 years of your life. A Masters is the best value, although it only offers a slight advantage over a Bachelors with experience.

In STEM areas such as Physics, Mathematics etc. a PhD might be more valuable. However fields such as the social sciences, the arts etc. a PhD is almost a necessity to get a decent job in a related area of your expertise. Of course, I'm not an expert on the Canadian job market, which I understand is a 100 times worse than the U.S. market. I'm only speaking from my experience in America.
Right, I work in telecoms and, unless you land a job in the research branch of the company, a PhD adds little value relative to a master's. The added challenge for them is that they spent too much time in the academia and did not develop soft skills like customer management, adapting presentation approaches to different audiences, leadership, work under pressure, etc. I've worked with a couple of guys with PhDs from top universities and they were not really above anyone else in any aspect that had anything to do with the job.

I have work/education in three countries with completely different realities and in all of them PhDs had the same complaint.

Being a Canadian citizenship might be a factor for some jobs, but not for all of them. No offense, but I think you're just using that to blame the environment for the challenges you're facing.
 

ttrajan

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Yes Canada don,t need PHDs. No job available for qualified people now. Actually they need people those who can start their own business and creates jobs.
 

deadbird

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ttrajan said:
Yes Canada don,t need PHDs. No job available for qualified people now. Actually they need people those who can start their own business.
On a slightly tangential topic. I haven't really found any threads on tech entrepreneurship in Canada. If you work in software it doesn't really take much investment to bring an idea to fruition; unlike brick and mortar industries.

Are there any examples of people on this forum who went this route? Really looking for some inspiration.
 

torontosm

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deadbird said:
On a slightly tangential topic. I haven't really found any threads on tech entrepreneurship in Canada. If you work in software it doesn't really take much investment to bring an idea to fruition; unlike brick and mortar industries.

Are there any examples of people on this forum who went this route? Really looking for some inspiration.
I've worked with a number of tech startups and can offer you some insights. PM me if you would like.