How is the physical presence requirement for permanent residency calculated?

[rick45]

Apologies if this has already been answered in other posts.

As per cic site, for Canadian citizenship, the day you enter Canada and the day you leave Canada as counted as being physically present in Canada.

Is it the same way for PR renewal. For eg, if I leave Canada on Jul 1 and come back on July 31, is it considered as 2 days in Canada (for Jul 1 and Jul 31) and 29 days out of country, or 0 days in Canada.

Thanks!

 

[zardoz]

Apologies if this has already been answered in other posts.

As per cic site, for Canadian citizenship, the day you enter Canada and the day you leave Canada as counted as being physically present in Canada.

Is it the same way for PR renewal. For eg, if I leave Canada on Jul 1 and come back on July 31, is it considered as 2 days in Canada (for Jul 1 and Jul 31) and 29 days out of country, or 0 days in Canada.

Thanks!

Any day that you spend even a single minute on Canadian soil is counted as a day for PR residency obligation purposes.

 

[Leon]

Yes, any part of a day counts as a full day towards the PR residency requirements.

You can find this here:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/op/op10-eng.pdf - article 6.4 - page 16

For the purpose of calculating the number of days to comply with the residency obligation in IRPA A28(2)(a), a day includes a full day or any part of a day that a permanent resident is physically present in Canada. Any part of a day spent in Canada, or otherwise in compliance with A28(2)(a), is to be counted as one full day for the purpose of calculating the 730 days in a five-year period.

 

[dpenabill]

Small quibble: credit for time in Canada is not necessarily based on time spent "on Canadian soil."

It is based on time spent on the Canadian side of a Port-of-Entry . . . that is, time in Canada before passing a PoE exiting Canada, and time in Canada after being allowed to enter Canada at a PoE.

Examples:

-- Flight to Canada lands at Pearson airport 10:45 p.m., but problems at the gate delay actually getting off the plane and other delays result in not actually going through the PoE procedures for arrival in Canada until after midnight: date of arrival is the date after midnight and the hour plus on Canadian soil the night before does not count.

-- Flight leaving Canada is scheduled to depart at 11:15 p.m. and passengers for that flight have checked in, passed security, and are at the departure gate by that time: that will be the date of exit even if the plane's actual departure does not occur until well after midnight.

-- Driving across the Peace Bridge from Buffalo, N.Y. sometime before midnight but it is a holiday weekend and the traffic is backed up, so you sit in a long line of cars on the Canadian side, and at one minute past midnight you finally are at the PIL booth and get waived into Canada; date of entry is the date after midnight, not the night before.

For the vast majority of individuals this has no significance, and even for most PRs this has minimal significance.



But that noted:

For anyone for whom one or two days difference will make a difference in meeting a residency or presence obligation, they are cutting it too close. Not a good idea. Assessment of presence, be that for the PR RO or citizenship presence requirement, generally tends to be focused on broader indications even though the formal determination depends on meeting the technical minimum threshold.

The real significance is in accurately reporting the dates of entry and exit. One or three instances of being one-day off is not likely to be a problem (IRCC realizes people make mistakes and is generally forgiving of small mistakes), but of course it is always best to be as accurate as possible. Remember, any discrepancy tends to indicate an individual is not a reliable reporter of the facts.

But if there are multiple inaccuracies in reporting dates of travel, that can be a problem, the least of which is that it compromises one's credibility, the worst of which (if in conjunction with other significant discrepancies) is that it could support an allegation of misrepresentation.

And, of course, for someone foolish enough to be cutting it so close that one day makes a difference between meeting the PR RO, or citizenship presence requirement, sure being one-day off could be fatal (will be fatal to a citizenship application, as the 1460 day presence requirement is absolute, any shortfall, even just a day, is more than a reason to deny citizenship but specifically precludes a grant of citizenship).

 

[rick45]

Thank you all - very helpful responses!

 

[Kikilala]

Small quibble: credit for time in Canada is not necessarily based on time spent "on Canadian soil."

It is based on time spent on the Canadian side of a Port-of-Entry . . . that is, time in Canada before passing a PoE exiting Canada, and time in Canada after being allowed to enter Canada at a PoE.

Examples:

-- Flight to Canada lands at Pearson airport 10:45 p.m., but problems at the gate delay actually getting off the plane and other delays result in not actually going through the PoE procedures for arrival in Canada until after midnight: date of arrival is the date after midnight and the hour plus on Canadian soil the night before does not count.

-- Flight leaving Canada is scheduled to depart at 11:15 p.m. and passengers for that flight have checked in, passed security, and are at the departure gate by that time: that will be the date of exit even if the plane's actual departure does not occur until well after midnight.

-- Driving across the Peace Bridge from Buffalo, N.Y. sometime before midnight but it is a holiday weekend and the traffic is backed up, so you sit in a long line of cars on the Canadian side, and at one minute past midnight you finally are at the PIL booth and get waived into Canada; date of entry is the date after midnight, not the night before.

For the vast majority of individuals this has no significance, and even for most PRs this has minimal significance.



But that noted:

For anyone for whom one or two days difference will make a difference in meeting a residency or presence obligation, they are cutting it too close. Not a good idea. Assessment of presence, be that for the PR RO or citizenship presence requirement, generally tends to be focused on broader indications even though the formal determination depends on meeting the technical minimum threshold.

The real significance is in accurately reporting the dates of entry and exit. One or three instances of being one-day off is not likely to be a problem (IRCC realizes people make mistakes and is generally forgiving of small mistakes), but of course it is always best to be as accurate as possible. Remember, any discrepancy tends to indicate an individual is not a reliable reporter of the facts.

But if there are multiple inaccuracies in reporting dates of travel, that can be a problem, the least of which is that it compromises one's credibility, the worst of which (if in conjunction with other significant discrepancies) is that it could support an allegation of misrepresentation.

And, of course, for someone foolish enough to be cutting it so close that one day makes a difference between meeting the PR RO, or citizenship presence requirement, sure being one-day off could be fatal (will be fatal to a citizenship application, as the 1460 day presence requirement is absolute, any shortfall, even just a day, is more than a reason to deny citizenship but specifically precludes a grant of citizenship).

Dear dpenabill, or whoever can answer:

Regarding the flight leaving Canada, what if the flight’s Schedule departure time was after midnight 1:30am, but I checked in, passed security & at the boarding gate before midnight? Which should be the day I left Canada? Before or after midnight?

I’m so concern about it because I had a few trips, say like 4-5 times taking this flight. I’m afraid if I make mistake for 4-5 trips the officer might think my application is not trustable and put me to non-routine process, even though I have more than enough buffer.

Thank you for answering

 

[canuck_in_uk]

Dear dpenabill, or whoever can answer:

Regarding the flight leaving Canada, what if the flight’s Schedule departure time was after midnight 1:30am, but I checked in, passed security & at the boarding gate before midnight? Which should be the day I left Canada? Before or after midnight?

I’m so concern about it because I had a few trips, say like 4-5 times taking this flight. I’m afraid if I make mistake for 4-5 trips the officer might think my application is not trustable and put me to non-routine process, even though I have more than enough buffer.

Thank you for answering

Serisouly? You are still in Canada while sitting at the boarding gate, so.....

 

[Kikilala]

That was what I thought, but after reading these 2 scenarios dpenabill replied, I’m confused now.

Small quibble: credit for time in Canada is not necessarily based on time spent "on Canadian soil."

It is based on time spent on the Canadian side of a Port-of-Entry . . . that is, time in Canada before passing a PoE exiting Canada, and time in Canada after being allowed to enter Canada at a PoE.

Examples:

-- Flight to Canada lands at Pearson airport 10:45 p.m., but problems at the gate delay actually getting off the plane and other delays result in not actually going through the PoE procedures for arrival in Canada until after midnight: date of arrival is the date after midnight and the hour plus on Canadian soil the night before does not count.

-- Flight leaving Canada is scheduled to depart at 11:15 p.m. and passengers for that flight have checked in, passed security, and are at the departure gate by that time: that will be the date of exit even if the plane's actual departure does not occur until well after midnight.

The 1st scenario I understand, CBSA computer recorded one’s entry after midnight so no choice, have to follow CBSA’s record.

But what about the 2nd scenario?

One still consider leaving Canada BEFORE midnight even thought the Actual departure time of the flight is delayed until after midnight. So the day leaving Canada means the Schedule Departure Time? Or the time one’s passes the security? Does CBSA have our exit record that shows the exact time we pass the security? It seems that except the security guy who scan the boarding pass there’s no one else check on us?

 

[canuck_in_uk]

That was what I thought, but after reading these 2 scenarios dpenabill replied, I’m confused now.



The 1st scenario I understand, CBSA computer recorded one’s entry after midnight so no choice, have to follow CBSA’s record.

But what about the 2nd scenario?

One still consider leaving Canada BEFORE midnight even thought the Actual departure time of the flight is delayed until after midnight. So the day leaving Canada means the Schedule Departure Time? Or the time one’s passes the security? Does CBSA have our exit record that shows the exact time we pass the security? It seems that except the security guy who scan the boarding pass there’s no one else check on us?

Your scenario is different. Your flight is departing after midnight.

 

[dpenabill]

Dear dpenabill, or whoever can answer:

Regarding the flight leaving Canada, what if the flight’s Schedule departure time was after midnight 1:30am, but I checked in, passed security & at the boarding gate before midnight? Which should be the day I left Canada? Before or after midnight?

I’m so concern about it because I had a few trips, say like 4-5 times taking this flight. I’m afraid if I make mistake for 4-5 trips the officer might think my application is not trustable and put me to non-routine process, even though I have more than enough buffer.

Thank you for answering

While I disagree with what appears to be the reasoning underlying the first comment by @canuck_in_uk my conclusion is largely the same as hers or his. No need to worry. Which deserves repetition for emphasis: NO NEED TO WORRY.

Of course I am NOT certain about some of the details.

This uncertainty particularly applies regarding your more recent post in which you reference a situation which illustrates potential vagaries in the facts and circumstances attendant the particular event:

One still consider leaving Canada BEFORE midnight even thought the Actual departure time of the flight is delayed until after midnight.

That is, where there is a SCHEDULED departure a day prior to the actual departure, regarding which there can be different scenarios, such as a delayed departure which simply means the plane is not loaded and does not take off until after midnight, versus, say, where there is in effect a later "rescheduled" departure time (typically involving delays that are hours long and the later departure time is displayed on the boards showing departures).

To be clear, there is a definitive difference between a flight which is scheduled to depart on a date specific AFTER MIDNIGHT, but soon enough after midnight that passengers have gone through all the pre-boarding procedures before midnight, that is, the previous day (in terms of calendar date), VERSUS a flight scheduled to depart before midnight but which is sitting on the tarmac after midnight waiting its turn to take off.

All of which, including why I disagree with what appears to be the underlying reasoning for the first comment posted by @canuck_in_uk (no quibbles at all with the second comment), warrants some more in-depth observations. Which I will try to get to later (got some yard work to do before it gets too late).

That said, note that the post of mine you are quoting is nearly FOUR years old. A good deal has changed since then. And, as I may not have emphasized enough in that post, there is a HUGE difference between counting days to meet the physical presence requirement for citizenship, where falling short of the requirement by just one day means the citizenship application must necessarily be denied, VERSUS being within three or five days of meeting the PR Residency Obligation, which is not likely to be a problem unless there are other circumstances causing serious concerns. And, for purposes of making an application to renew or replace an expiring PR card, should NOT be a problem at all (as long as the PR is staying in Canada, and again UNLESS there are other circumstances causing serious concerns).

Also, the qualifying observations included in that post are worth considering. Especially: "One or three instances of being one-day off is not likely to be a problem (IRCC realizes people make mistakes and is generally forgiving of small mistakes), but of course it is always best to be as accurate as possible."

As you can see, these observations alone have already gone rather long, without delving into caveats, qualifiers, or nuances at all.

I will make an effort to return later and elaborate more. For now, EVEN if the information CBSA accesses to verify your travel history dates deviates from yours by one day on, say, four occasions, that in itself will almost certainly NOT be a problem for a PR card application.

And NOT a problem for a citizenship application either UNLESS the applicant applied with so small a margin over the minimum that deducting those days will render the applicant short of the requirement (IRCC has NO discretion to grant citizenship if the applicant was even one day short).

For a PR card application, even if deducting those days would render the PR short of technically meeting the Residency Obligation by a few days, that should NOT be a problem, again absent other reasons for there to be a problem. AND, in particular, not at all a problem so long as the PR is remaining in Canada.

 

[Buletruck]

If IRCC has no discretion in granting citizenship if the applicant is even one day short, why would they have any discretion in granting PR renewal if the applicant is short one day? The requirement is 730 days minimum, not approximately 730 days. I don’t understand how, other than a VO making an arbitrary decision to ignore the requirement, you see a breach of RO, even by a few days not being a problem.

 

[dpenabill]

If IRCC has no discretion in granting citizenship if the applicant is even one day short, why would they have any discretion in granting PR renewal if the applicant is short one day? The requirement is 730 days minimum, not approximately 730 days. I don’t understand how, other than a VO making an arbitrary decision to ignore the requirement, you see a breach of RO, even by a few days not being a problem.

The actual physical requirement for citizenship is mandatory. There is no leeway or discretion in the statutory provisions imposing an actual physical presence requirement for grant citizenship. A PR is NOT eligible for a grant of citizenship UNLESS the actual physical requirement is met. IRCC has no legal authority to grant citizenship if the requirement is not met. (Subject to very specific statutory exceptions.)

In contrast, failing to comply with the PR Residency Obligation does not mandate loss of PR status. Failing to comply with the RO MAY be a basis for terminating a PR's status but termination of status is NOT required or mandated. Indeed, even if proper authority (either CBSA or IRCC) determines a PR has failed to comply with the RO, they cannot terminate the PR's status without further considering if there are H&C reasons to allow the PR to keep status. Lots of discretion in play.

In what I describe it is the practical impact of the latter which has the most influence. If a PR is just two or even ten days short of compliance with the RO, the bar for allowing the PR to keep status based on H&C reasons is rather low, given the "breach" is minimal. Moreover, in regards to PR card applications, as long as the PR remains IN Canada days after making the application continue to count toward meeting the Residency Obligation (days in Canada continue to count unless the PR has already been denied a PR Travel Document or issued a 44(1) Report). In contrast, the date a citizenship application is made fixes the "eligibility period," and days in Canada after that do not count toward meeting the presence requirement.

 

[dpenabill]

Regarding the flight leaving Canada, what if the flight’s Schedule departure time was after midnight 1:30am, but I checked in, passed security & at the boarding gate before midnight? Which should be the day I left Canada? Before or after midnight?

I’m so concern about it because I had a few trips, say like 4-5 times taking this flight. I’m afraid if I make mistake for 4-5 trips the officer might think my application is not trustable and put me to non-routine process, even though I have more than enough buffer.

In looking at this again this morning, it seems to me that a Deeper Dive into this is not necessary. You grasp what mostly matters is credibility rather than the precise counting of days (except in a citizenship application and even there only if not counting such days threatens a shortfall).

For context, even in the citizenship application process, applicants report having made mistakes on the scale of omitting whole trips for as much as two or three weeks and that NOT causing problems SO LONG AS, of course, they had an ample buffer so the difference in the calculation would not result in being short of the requirement . . . and otherwise there is no cause to believe they are willfully misrepresenting or deceptive.

For PR card applications, for example, whether or not it appears the PR is currently SETTLED and LIVING PERMANENTLY in Canada will tend to have far more influence in whether IRCC has concerns triggering non-routine processing.

That is, even though IRCC might perceive some discrepancies in the reported travel history, a few small discrepancies are not likely to be problematic UNLESS they appear to be intentionally deceptive, or are on a scale suggesting the PR is unreliable, or there are additional circumstances indicating reasons to be concerned about the PR's credibility.

For clarity:

The 1st scenario I understand, CBSA computer recorded one’s entry after midnight so no choice, have to follow CBSA’s record.

-- Flight to Canada lands at Pearson airport 10:45 p.m., but problems at the gate delay actually getting off the plane and other delays result in not actually going through the PoE procedures for arrival in Canada until after midnight: date of arrival is the date after midnight and the hour plus on Canadian soil the night before does not count.

But what about the 2nd scenario?

-- Flight leaving Canada is scheduled to depart at 11:15 p.m. and passengers for that flight have checked in, passed security, and are at the departure gate by that time: that will be the date of exit even if the plane's actual departure does not occur until well after midnight.

For the second scenario, the fact the plane has not physically taken off until after midnight is not likely to be reflected in whatever records CBSA utilizes to capture exit information. My best guess is that the airline's scheduled departure time is what matters.

I do NOT know what records or source of information CBSA might use, going forward, to populate its databases. Remember, CBSA capturing the exit information is still a work-in-progress, still evolving and being implemented.

But if the scheduled departure time is before midnight, that is the SAFEST date to use as an exit date, even though the plane does not actually take off until well after midnight. This does not mean there will be a problem if the PR reports the date after midnight. It warrants noting that PRs have long and notoriously reported exit dates based on passport stamps showing arrival date in the destination country. Not accurately of course. But again IRCC gets it. Better, best even, to accurately state the date of departure. But generally should be NO big deal (other than for the no-margin citizenship applicant).