Expression of Interest in 2005 Lost PR status relinquish status???

[Sternchen30890]

hello, I have a question in mind and need your help.

We lived in Canada from 2001 to 2009 as PR.
We returned to Germany until now and are planing to apply (if possible) under the new Expression of Interest System next year.

So basically we dont meet the residency obligations any more but we are still PR because nobody took it away from us yet.

Do we have to relinquish our status before we submit our expression of interest next year? Or can we wait if we get an initation to apply for new PR???

thanks in advance!

 

[Msafiri]

You are a PR until:

1. You relinquish voluntarily (via a documentary/ formal process)
2. Become a Canadian Citizen
3. Become inadmissible and fail to appeal or lose at appeal
4. Death


Your current situation is a risk of 3 but CIC don't know you are inadmissible because you have breached the Residence Obligation which is to have 730 days of physical presence in the 5 years prior to any examination (where you've been a PR for more than 5 years). Examination refers to any formal interaction with the immigration authorities including border officials where the law mandates the review of your RO status.

The biggest luck on your side is that you are visitor visa exempt to Canada. You can fly to Canada and be admitted as a visitor by CBSA either in ignorance of your PR status or by a CBSA agent that give you a pass for whatever reason be it they are at the end of their shift, don't like paperwork etc. Getting a pass means you are not reported for being inadmissible. Once you are in Canada you will put your PR status back in good standing after living 730 days straight upon which you can apply for PR Cards. Until the magic 730 days you got to stay under CIC's radar so you are best not to travel, sponsor or get into trouble with the cops because they may call immigration on you. Gone are the days when PRs could get into legal troubles and get a pass...even seemingly minor convictions can see you deported.

The biggest problem PRs that get a pass have is sitting tight...they have a job back home, family members, want the same lifestyle as before which involves leaving Canada. PR Status is not a glorified visitors visa so this usually ends in tears.

If you get reported then you can appeal to the courts but you need a solid reason - case law says this is you being sick or a close relative which for you to breach the RO must by default be of a serious nature. Any lifestyle reason like a better job, missed my family etc doesn't cut it.

Whatever you do don't approach CIC or the consular section for advice or representations - the visa posts are the first gate keepers and they don't cut you the slack the border team does..they have more time to review your situation than the POE staff!

 

[Leon]

If you apply for any kind of PR, immigration will note that you have an old PR and tell you that you can not apply again until you renounce that.

Like Msafiri says, your other option would be to go to Canada on your visa exempt passport and see if they let you enter. If they don't figure out that you are a PR and let you enter or they figure out that you have an old PR but let you enter without reporting you anyway, you are still a PR living in Canada and you have an option to bring your status back in good standing, simply by staying for 2 years so that you meet the RO again. During this time, you are still a PR, you may work, you may apply for health care etc. but you should not apply for anything from immigration for the 2 years. Not being able to renew your PR card, you may have some difficulties. You may have a problem getting health care and a drivers license for example. Some employers may ask you for a PR card as well. Needless to say, you should not risk leaving Canada for these 2 years because every time you enter, you risk getting caught.

If they do catch you on entry and realize that you are a PR who doesn't meet the RO and they report you for it, you can accept the loss of your PR and renounce it on the spot and then you would be free to apply again. However, you also have the option to appeal for your PR which I would only advise if you have solid H&C grounds for having been unable to meet the RO. If you appeal, you would be allowed to enter Canada as a PR, you can renew your PR card for 1 year at a time and they will let you stay during your appeal processing which can take 1-2 years. If you lose your appeal, you lose your PR and will be asked to leave.

 

[Sternchen30890]

If you apply for any kind of PR, immigration will note that you have an old PR and tell you that you can not apply again until you renounce that.

Like Msafiri says, your other option would be to go to Canada on your visa exempt passport and see if they let you enter. If they don't figure out that you are a PR and let you enter or they figure out that you have an old PR but let you enter without reporting you anyway, you are still a PR living in Canada and you have an option to bring your status back in good standing, simply by staying for 2 years so that you meet the RO again. During this time, you are still a PR, you may work, you may apply for health care etc. but you should not apply for anything from immigration for the 2 years. Not being able to renew your PR card, you may have some difficulties. You may have a problem getting health care and a drivers license for example. Some employers may ask you for a PR card as well. Needless to say, you should not risk leaving Canada for these 2 years because every time you enter, you risk getting caught.

If they do catch you on entry and realize that you are a PR who doesn't meet the RO and they report you for it, you can accept the loss of your PR and renounce it on the spot and then you would be free to apply again. However, you also have the option to appeal for your PR which I would only advise if you have solid H&C grounds for having been unable to meet the RO. If you appeal, you would be allowed to enter Canada as a PR, you can renew your PR card for 1 year at a time and they will let you stay during your appeal processing which can take 1-2 years. If you lose your appeal, you lose your PR and will be asked to leave.

Hello!
We are not planing to go to Canada with our expired PR cards. We have a school aged son (born in Canada) and dont want to take any risk.
You need a drivers licence in Canada for example. THe risk to get reported at the POE is too high for us.
thats why we want to re apply next year under the new program.
So all we need to do prior to a new application is to relinquish our status? perhaps just apply for a travel document?
thanks in advance!!!

 

[Matt the Aussie]

In this case on a visa exempt passport, there isn't too much risk coming as a Visitor to Canada.

Either:
a) they will let you in as a visitor, and once you are in Canada you have all of the same rights as any PR EXCEPT travel.
b) they report you, you renouce your old PR and apply for a new one (which is what you were planning on doing anyway).

Don't quote me on this, but it may even be quicker to renounce that way (as part of a report of RO breach in Canada) rather than the traditional way of submitting paperwork to a CIC office overseas?

 

[Sternchen30890]

In this case on a visa exempt passport, there isn't too much risk coming as a Visitor to Canada.

Either:
a) they will let you in as a visitor, and once you are in Canada you have all of the same rights as any PR EXCEPT travel.
b) they report you, you renouce your old PR and apply for a new one (which is what you were planning on doing anyway).

Don't quote me on this, but it may even be quicker to renounce that way (as part of a report of RO breach in Canada) rather than the traditional way of submitting paperwork to a CIC office overseas?

We a flight to canada is pretty expensive, submitting a travel document is way cheaper.


If we enter as visitors and dont get reported we still need to come back to pack all our things. We have a condo for example which needs to be rented out or sold. If they let us in we cant go back.
We need to say good by to our family and our son has to leave friends and school. THere is no way to go to Canada and then leave again because they report us.

We cannot get a drivers licence for example withour a valid PR card.
If a family member dies and I would like to be able to attend his funeral, which I cant if I have to stay 2 years.

I dont think its a good option...

 

[Alurra71]

Hello!
We are not planing to go to Canada with our expired PR cards. We have a school aged son (born in Canada) and dont want to take any risk.
You need a drivers licence in Canada for example. THe risk to get reported at the POE is too high for us.
thats why we want to re apply next year under the new program.
So all we need to do prior to a new application is to relinquish our status? perhaps just apply for a travel document?
thanks in advance!!!

If you have a canadian citizen son, then why wouldn't you fly in using your visa exempt passport and claim to be a visitor. Once you are in the country you can then settle and put your son in school and such and wait for your 730 to elapse and then renew your PR cards. Because your son is a citizen of canada, solely by being born in canada, he will not need any kind of documents, other than his birth certificate to to get into school and obtain his health card and such. You and your wife however might have a bit more of a go of it to get your documentation in order, but it might be worth the risk if you are now ready to settle in Canada as opposed to waiting some odd years more to try and renounce and start all over again from where you currently are now ...just my opinion


I suppose another option might be for one of you to come on your visa exempt passport, if you are able to get into Canada without being reported, you begin your timer count, and once one spouse reaches 730 days, the other spouse could fly in visa exempt and if reported the spouse with current valid PR could then sponsor the other spouse.

Because you already have a 'valid' PR status in Canada, although it is in breach of RO, I think you will find most here would give you the advice of trying to salvage the one you currently have rather than toss it out and hope that you can then gain entry under another category.

 

[Sternchen30890]

In this case on a visa exempt passport, there isn't too much risk coming as a Visitor to Canada.

Either:
a) they will let you in as a visitor, and once you are in Canada you have all of the same rights as any PR EXCEPT travel.

no, you cannot get a drivers licence and probably face problems getting health care. You cant leave you home country with the attention of leaving for 2 years as a visitor.

There are jobs we need to quit, a child in school, a house that needs to be sold, old grantparents that will be upset seing us leave again. Its not that easy...

 

[Matt the Aussie]

OK, those are all fair points. Just giving another perspective.

If you're really set on renouncing PR, there's no need to even apply for a TD as far as I'm aware...just send a declaration outlining that you understand you're in breach of RO and wish to relinquish your PR voluntarily. Not sure of the exact process with this or how long it takes though.

And, BTW, yes you can get a driver's license without a PR card. Nowhere does it say you must be a PR to have a DL.

 

[Sternchen30890]

OK, those are all fair points. Just giving another perspective.

If you're really set on renouncing PR, there's no need to even apply for a TD as far as I'm aware...just send a declaration outlining that you understand you're in breach of RO and wish to relinquish your PR voluntarily. Not sure of the exact process with this or how long it takes though.

And, BTW, yes you can get a driver's license without a PR card. Nowhere does it say you must be a PR to have a DL.

no but you need a valid PR card to get a drivers license. I remember it when we lived in Calgary. My husband also got background checks from his employer.
I still think its a risk. Plus we want to be excited about going back and not worry about what could come.
Thanks for your posts and help!!!!

 

[Matt the Aussie]

Then how do all the temporary workers on work permits and even study permits get driver's licenses then?

The background check from an employer usually centres around credit rating. If they were to check immigration status they would see you have PR status and a permanent SIN, which entitles you to work. They cannot ask to see a PR card, and even if they made the mistake and did you would tell them it does not prove your status.

However, I also understand you're not ready to move right now and you are much more happy to proceed with relinquishing. Just trying to make sure you make a fully informed decision. Relinquishing will take several months, re-applying several more, and you get no guarantees of success this way.

 

[meyakanor]

Then how do all the temporary workers on work permits and even study permits get driver's licenses then?

The background check from an employer usually centres around credit rating. If they were to check immigration status they would see you have PR status and a permanent SIN, which entitles you to work. They cannot ask to see a PR card, and even if they made the mistake and did you would tell them it does not prove your status.

In theory, you should still be able to apply for a driver's license if you are a PR, even without having a PR card.

I know that, at least in Ontario, all you need is foreign passport to apply for a license (yes, even if you're just a tourist), but I heard it's more strict in BC and Alberta, where a PR is required to show his PR card. I applied for SIN, OHIP, driver's license, or even get lower tuition fee without having a PR card (CoPR was all I needed). Employment can be obtained by just having an unrestricted SIN.

As far as your status in Canada is concerned, even without the card, you're still a PR, and you're still technically entitled to all rights and benefits available for PR.

 

[Leon]

Most provinces do not issue drivers licenses to visitors but they will issue them to students, foreign workers and PR's. For each level, there are certain documents needed and in order to prove your status, if you are a student, you need a valid study permit, a foreign worker needs a valid work permit and a PR may need a valid PR card. I don't know if all provinces are that strict on it. I have heard someone state that with landing papers and an expired PR card, you can get a paper license in BC but not the real thing.

Ontario is different because they do not require you to be a legal resident in order to issue you a license.

 

[meyakanor]

Most provinces do not issue drivers licenses to visitors but they will issue them to students, foreign workers and PR's. For each level, there are certain documents needed and in order to prove your status, if you are a student, you need a valid study permit, a foreign worker needs a valid work permit and a PR may need a valid PR card. I don't know if all provinces are that strict on it. I have heard someone state that with landing papers and an expired PR card, you can get a paper license in BC but not the real thing.

Ontario is different because they do not require you to be a legal resident in order to issue you a license.

About Ontario, it's not just driver's license. It's everything else as well. OHIP (health care), SIN, employment, local tuition fees, child benefits, all can be obtained as a PR without having a valid PR card. Maybe the Ontario government workers are more well versed with the immigration rules due to the highly concentrated immigrant population in the province? But then, BC too has a high number of immigrants...

 

[Sternchen30890]

About Ontario, it's not just driver's license. It's everything else as well. OHIP (health care), SIN, employment, local tuition fees, child benefits, all can be obtained as a PR without having a valid PR card. Maybe the Ontario government workers are more well versed with the immigration rules due to the highly concentrated immigrant population in the province? But then, BC too has a high number of immigrants...

Honestly, this could be a way for us to go back to Canada. If we go to Ontario as visitors, (purpose to show our son his birth country), settle there, put him in school etc.
We both still have our SIN and Health cards from Alberta. So working shouldnt also be a problem. And after 2 years apply for a new PR card for both of us.
The only thing would be not to leave Canada for 2 years.