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Expired PR card, Residency obligation not met, travelling by land border

garima1009

Full Member
Jun 11, 2017
22
4
hello lovely people,

I have received my PR in 2018, travelled to Canada stayed there for 20 days and came back to India. Then worked in India for some time then covid happened and I also got married. Then I got a job internally from my India company and travelled to canada in January 2021 alone, my husband applied for TRV but rejected. Then because of second wave of covid in India, I had to travel back leaving my job in June 2021. Then I stayed in India till December 2022 and then moved to UK to do my masters. I have completed my masters in January 2024 and working in UK now. My PR card expired in Aug 2023. Now, I have US visitor visa and now want to travel to Canada by road. My husband has TRV to enter canada and we are travelling to start my sponsorship application.

I have the following questions:
1. Do you have a personal experience about what happens at the border when I travel by land though windsor/detroit border, what questions and documents they ask
2. Best case scenario- if the CBSA officer allows me to enter canada and doesnt report me, how to know if I can renew my card?what doc I can show
3. Worst case scenario if the CBSA officer reports me for 44A, how soon I can appeal and get the approval. Will I get a new card?
4. Can I apply for sponsorship for my spouse with expired card

I know these are too many questions. But i would really appreciate any help possible. I am anyways going to hire a lawyer but it would be really helpful to know any real experiences
 

scylla

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Jun 8, 2010
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hello lovely people,

I have received my PR in 2018, travelled to Canada stayed there for 20 days and came back to India. Then worked in India for some time then covid happened and I also got married. Then I got a job internally from my India company and travelled to canada in January 2021 alone, my husband applied for TRV but rejected. Then because of second wave of covid in India, I had to travel back leaving my job in June 2021. Then I stayed in India till December 2022 and then moved to UK to do my masters. I have completed my masters in January 2024 and working in UK now. My PR card expired in Aug 2023. Now, I have US visitor visa and now want to travel to Canada by road. My husband has TRV to enter canada and we are travelling to start my sponsorship application.

I have the following questions:
1. Do you have a personal experience about what happens at the border when I travel by land though windsor/detroit border, what questions and documents they ask
2. Best case scenario- if the CBSA officer allows me to enter canada and doesnt report me, how to know if I can renew my card?what doc I can show
3. Worst case scenario if the CBSA officer reports me for 44A, how soon I can appeal and get the approval. Will I get a new card?
4. Can I apply for sponsorship for my spouse with expired card

I know these are too many questions. But i would really appreciate any help possible. I am anyways going to hire a lawyer but it would be really helpful to know any real experiences
You will be allowed into Canada regardless. The question is whether you will be reported or not for failure to meet RO. If you are not reported, then you will remain in Canada for two years straight without leaving and only then apply to renew your PR card. If you are reported, then you will need to appeal the loss of your PR status. This process can take a couple of years. If you want to try appealing, you want to have strong H&C reasons for doing so. The reasons you have stated are generally not accepted as H&C.

You must meet the residency obligation to sponsor your spouse for PR. So best case scenario you will need to wait two years after you have re-entered Canada before you will be able to submit the sponsorship application.
 

garima1009

Full Member
Jun 11, 2017
22
4
I have heard that if I am reported I will get 60 days to appeal, when will i get result of appeal? within those 60 days?

If it is going to take 2 years- will i be able to work, will i get a temporary status or proof that i can show to my employer?
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
97,668
23,376
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
I have heard that if I am reported I will get 60 days to appeal, when will i get result of appeal? within those 60 days?

If it is going to take 2 years- will i be able to work, will i get a temporary status or proof that i can show to my employer?
You won't have results within 60 days.

I assume you obtained a SIN when you originally landed. If so, you will have no issues working.
 

YVR123

VIP Member
Jul 27, 2017
8,075
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I have heard that if I am reported I will get 60 days to appeal, when will i get result of appeal? within those 60 days?

If it is going to take 2 years- will i be able to work, will i get a temporary status or proof that i can show to my employer?
60 days is your time to appeal, not for IRCC to provide result of appeal. It may be months or longer. If you get reported, your time spent in Canada waiting for the appeal likely won't count towards your RO.

You've worked before so you can work with your SIN (card/number).
You may not have provincial healthcare coverage if your PR card has expired. It depends on what proof your province need to renew your health card.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,536
3,295
I have heard that if I am reported I will get 60 days to appeal, when will i get result of appeal? within those 60 days?

If it is going to take 2 years- will i be able to work, will i get a temporary status or proof that i can show to my employer?
60 days is your time to appeal, not for IRCC to provide result of appeal. It may be months or longer. If you get reported, your time spent in Canada waiting for the appeal likely won't count towards your RO.
One correction, a big correction: 30 days to appeal. Not 60.

If an application for a PR TD is denied, the PR has 60 days to appeal that. When a Removal Order is issued (what many in this forum call being "reported"), the PR has just 30 days to make the appeal.

Otherwise the responses by others mostly cover it. In particular . . .

As @YVR123 noted, an appeal likely takes months to be heard and decided. In the not too distant past some of these appeals did take more than a year, as @scylla said, and some even longer, but that appears to have been largely Covid related, while more recently it appears that many if not most of these are finalized in less than eight or ten months, more than a few less than that.
(Note: Most of what we know about the timeline for appeals is based on extrapolating from known cases and that lags real time by many months, at the least, so the trend can change well before we are aware of it here. That said, last indicators are that appeal timelines are getting faster.)​

As @YVR123 also noted, the days spent in Canada pending the appeal will not be credited as days in Canada for purposes of calculating how much in breach of the RO you are at time of the appeal. They can help, but that is mostly in the sense that staying here pending the appeal helps show a commitment to establishing ties in Canada, whereas being outside Canada while the appeal is pending tends to be a negative, or even big negative factor (it is surprising how many will leave Canada while their appeal is pending).

@scylla largely covered the situation if you are rather fortunate to be waived through at the border, not subject to a section 44(1) Report and Inadmissibility proceeding resulting in a Removal Order (again, this is what many here call being "reported").

I will just add some details in regard to the procedure if a 44(1) Report is prepared at the Port-of-Entry (PoE).

(Note: This is how it should go, according to established guidelines, and how it typically goes; however, how it goes in any particular case can vary.)

First, being "reported" is more likely than being waived through, even though we see many anecdotal reports of PRs in breach of the RO being waived through. Again, @scylla largely covered the situation if you are rather fortunate to be waived through, and it is worth emphasizing that if this happens your best chance of keeping PR status and successfully sponsoring your spouse will be to WAIT before making any application for a PR card or application to sponsor.

If you are not waived through the PoE by the first officer, the Secondary officer might waive you through (and if so, again @scylla covered that) or question you about RO compliance (ask questions about when and how long you have been in Canada). It is that officer who decides whether to prepare a 44(1) Report.

If the Secondary officer prepares a 44(1) Report you will then be interviewed (in person or by telephone, usually while you are still in the PoE) by another officer who will decide whether to allow you to keep PR status or issue a Removal Order. You will have an opportunity to make your H&C case to this officer (who is acting in the role of a Minister's Delegate).

If the officer acting in the role of a Minister's Delegate is not persuaded by your H&C reasons, that officer issues a Removal Order, and you then have 30 days to appeal.

If you persuade this officer you should be allowed to keep PR status, there will be no need to appeal. Indeed, if that happens you might not need to wait two years to make a PR card application, or an application to sponsor your spouse. Better to get firmly established here, first, before making these applications. In particular, with the positive H&C decision you will probably be OK not waiting a full two years (hard to say how long to wait to be safe, long enough to get established at the least, and you will still need to make the H&C case again in a PR card application if you make that before spending 730 days here).

However, based on anecdotal reports of PoE experiences, if no Removal Order is issued it might be difficult to know, for sure, whether you were waived through or if there was a 44(1) Report and it was set aside for H&C reasons. It appears that the officers often do not clearly communicate to the traveler the particulars of the procedure except for the issuance of a Removal Order. To be safe, if no Removal Order is issued best to WAIT two years to make applications UNLESS you are sure there was a 44(1) Report and then a decision by another officer to set that aside for H&C reasons.

Additional Caution:

"My husband has TRV to enter canada and we are travelling to start my sponsorship application."​

A TRV does NOT guarantee being allowed entry into Canada. The TRV is authorization to enter Canada, but the traveler must still get permission to actually enter Canada at the PoE. A border officer can deny entry, or allow entry subject to an order to leave Canada within a short period of time, if the officer concludes the traveler is intending to stay in Canada (that is, if it appears the traveler is not coming to Canada temporarily).

I have not been following how these things go much for a number of years, now, so I cannot say much about what typically happens, let alone what will happen. I do not even know whether it is likely you will be questioned together or separately. And the information submitted attendant obtaining the TRV, which I know nothing about, may influence how things go.

So this is just a heads-up caution to make you aware that your situation is probably at least a little more tricky than most PRs who are in RO breach trying to get back into Canada to establish a life here. And, in particular, how things go could very much depend on how the two of you present your situation to border officials. They should recognize what is called "dual intent," so even if the officers perceive the two of you are coming here hoping to stay, as long as they know your spouse intends to leave Canada timely, depending on whether status to stay is extended or PR status is granted, they should allow your spouse to enter on the TRV (with a lot of emphasis on they should, not necessarily what they will do). Again, this is an aspect that I have not been paying much attention to now for several years, and a lot depends on the particulars of your situation and what you actually intend, so I cannot suggest how you should approach this . . . other than to be cognizant that if you are making the case you should be allowed to keep PR status based in large part on reasons why you are just now coming to stay, that could cause border officials to be concerned your spouse is coming to stay. You may find more current and helpful guidance about this in the forums here for temporary visitors.
 
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garima1009

Full Member
Jun 11, 2017
22
4
@dpenabil thank you so much for your elaborative response. It was helpful indeed. My husband has a return ticket from usa to UK so he intends to go back after spending few days with me. And will come back when everything is settled here in Canada. He can travel sperately without me a day before saying he is just going to visit toronto and come back in 2 days. I will also be coming back to Canada with a job as my company is remote first company. Will it matter or strengthen my case that my real sister is also in Canada and other real sister is US citizen and my parents are USgreen card holders.
 

scylla

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AOR Received.
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VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
@dpenabil thank you so much for your elaborative response. It was helpful indeed. My husband has a return ticket from usa to UK so he intends to go back after spending few days with me. And will come back when everything is settled here in Canada. He can travel sperately without me a day before saying he is just going to visit toronto and come back in 2 days. I will also be coming back to Canada with a job as my company is remote first company. Will it matter or strengthen my case that my real sister is also in Canada and other real sister is US citizen and my parents are USgreen card holders.
Having US citizen / US green card holder family members doesn't strengthen your case in any way. Canada and the US are different countries.

If you have to appeal, it doesn't harm to mention that your sister is in Canada.
 
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Sricand

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Aug 13, 2016
38
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60 days is your time to appeal, not for IRCC to provide result of appeal. It may be months or longer. If you get reported, your time spent in Canada waiting for the appeal likely won't count towards your RO.

You've worked before so you can work with your SIN (card/number).
You may not have provincial healthcare coverage if your PR card has expired. It depends on what proof your province need to renew your health card.
My recent experience on this was Service Ontario was indeed able to renew my OHIP when I visited them with an expired PR card, PP and a valid rental agreement that covers proof of address. The Service Ontario website clearly states the different types of documents acceptable and these were 3 satisfied them. Other provinces.. not really sure.
 
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garima1009

Full Member
Jun 11, 2017
22
4
Thank you @Sricand
One question, considering present scenario of us canada relations, what is more advisable - applying PRTD from London on H&C reasons(in this case what is the processing time) or going through Land border?

My lawyer said applying for PRTD online is more promising?
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
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Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
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Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Thank you @Sricand
One question, considering present scenario of us canada relations, what is more advisable - applying PRTD from London on H&C reasons(in this case what is the processing time) or going through Land border?

My lawyer said applying for PRTD online is more promising?
For the PRTD to be successful you need to have H&C reasons that IRCC will accept. IRCC doesn't seem to be accepting COVID as a reason, or reasons such as getting married or employment or attending school outside of Canada. What reasons do you have other than those?
 

garima1009

Full Member
Jun 11, 2017
22
4
When I went to canada second time with, i was living alone and I started having anxiety issues, i used to get nightmares like if something happens to me, Noone will get to know for days and my body will rot in my house. Because of these mental health issues I decided to go back. When I went back, i thought everything is gone related to my Canada PR.

But recently, when i got my US visa after doing research I got to know it is possible.
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
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Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
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28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
When I went to canada second time with, i was living alone and I started having anxiety issues, i used to get nightmares like if something happens to me, Noone will get to know for days and my body will rot in my house. Because of these mental health issues I decided to go back. When I went back, i thought everything is gone related to my Canada PR.

But recently, when i got my US visa after doing research I got to know it is possible.
I'm not sure if you have a strong case for H&C. It's a bit difficult to say.

For evidence of the mental health issues, you will want to provide letters from your doctor from the time you were being treated in Canada.

I'm not sure what you mean by "I thought everyting is gone related to my Canada PR". For H&C, you need to provide evidence of the circumstances that forced you to remain outside of Canada and made you unable to return to Canada to meet the residency obligation.

If you don't have clear H&C evidence, then re-entering Canada through the land border is your better option most likely.

Also, it looks like you didn't spend very much time in Canada after getting PR (20 days?). If that's the case, H&C will not be a good option.
 
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dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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My lawyer said applying for PRTD online is more promising?
A Dealing-With-Lawyers Sidebar:

I generally defer to lawyers who have been paid to review and analyze the particulars of a case. This is only in part because they are the ones with known experience, and very importantly, they should have a good knowledge of the law and practices, and to a large extent (albeit perhaps not enough) they are subject to professional ethics and oversight.

But the most important reason for deferring to lawyers is they should know the facts of the individual's case far, far better than what can be shared in a forum like this; that is, a lot of why their opinion and advice is usually better (usually better by a lot), is they have the personal information necessary to apply what is known about the law, the rules, and IRCC policies and practices, to their client's particular situation.

The latter is why I distinguish and do not defer much to opinions or advice obtained in free consultations, and indeed that sort of advice (given in free consultation) is prone to one of the most common mistakes made in forums like this: failing to recognize and account for situations in which what is best for most, most of the time, is not best for that particular individual. And sometimes that can be the worst thing in that individual's particular circumstances. What is generally the right approach is not always the right approach, and in some situations it can be an especially bad approach.

Sorry for such a lengthy sidebar . . . to the issue at hand:

PR TD? or Arrive Here and Apply for Entry at a PoE on the U.S./Canada border?

As @scylla and many others have correctly said, if you arrive at a Port-of-Entry (at a land crossing because you do not have a valid PR card or PR TD, so you cannot board a flight to Canada) and apply to enter Canada (application made by just arriving at the border inspection station), you will be allowed to enter Canada. So, even if border officials conclude you are inadmissible for breaching the RO, and a Removal Order is issued, you will still be allowed to enter Canada and can stay as long as you have a pending right of appeal (and thereafter if you win the appeal).

Otherwise . . .

As for what this lawyer said, I do not know what the lawyer means when saying "applying for PRTD online is more promising." If the lawyer recommends applying for a PR TD based on an in-depth review of the details in YOUR particular situation, as I said, I generally defer to the lawyer who is better informed of the individual's personal facts. There are many situations in which that would make sense, even though generally, for a PR who is in breach of the RO wanting to return to Canada, the odds of keeping PR status are better, perhaps even quite a lot better, returning to Canada without applying for a PR TD, which mostly means traveling to Canada via the U.S. (few can get here by private jet).

For example, for many the logistics, especially financially, of traveling here and investing in staying here pending an appeal, is a gamble they cannot afford absent some assurance they have good odds of keeping their PR status and allowed to live here for the future, especially if the odds of making a successful H&C case are not good. They can make their H&C case in the PR TD application and, basically, learn whether they will be allowed to keep PR status or not, without having to invest so much. There are other situations, such as a PR who has recently reached the age of majority, and who when a minor was removed from Canada after living here for a good, for whom a PR TD application supported by H&C considerations makes good sense.

Generally, however, for a PR in breach of the RO, and particularly a PR who is in breach by a lot, there is more risk of getting a decision terminating PR status (a decision denying the PR TD) when applying for a PR Travel Document than the risk of a decision terminating PR status (issued a Removal Order) attendant an examination at a Port-of-Entry. Just the chance of being waived through without being questioned about RO compliance improves the PR's odds.

It is worth noting that an application for a PR TD necessarily involves an examination of the PR's compliance with the RO. Information about and supporting evidence of RO compliance must be included in the application, and if the information does not document RO compliance, the H&C must be made in the application. Border screening does not require RO compliance screening. Whether to even question the PR about RO compliance is in the border officers' discretion.

Moreover, a PR making an application for a PR TD because they do not have a valid PR card is presumed to not have valid PR status. That presumption is easily rebutted just in the fact of PR status itself, documented in their GCMS records, but that characterizes the process.

Meanwhile . . . IMPORTANTLY . . . I cannot so much as guess what the odds are for you. Even very good H&C cases can be tricky.
 
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