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Do I have citizen by descent?

Jul 1, 2019
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Hello, I was hoping someone could give me some insight.

I am wondering if I can claim Canadian by descent.

Senario;

My great grandmother (born in Ontario) gave birth to my grandfather in New York while she was a resident alien married to a US citizen. Her father and mother, from Canada and England respectively, were naturalized US citizens. She did not automatically become a citizen when they became citizens because she was over the age of 16.

Thus as far as I can tell, both my grandfather and mother could have obtained proof of their citizenship. Both are now deceased so they cannot apply now.

I am born before 2009 and am a US citizen. Wish I had applied while my Mother was alive.

Thank you for any input.
 

itsmyid

Champion Member
Jul 26, 2012
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Even if she were still alive you still wouldn’t have been eligible. Your grandfather was eligible, but your mother was the 2nd generation born outside Canada, and therefore not eligible for it
 
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hawk39

Hero Member
Mar 26, 2017
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Essentially, itsmyid is correct.

Thus as far as I can tell, both my grandfather and mother could have obtained proof of their citizenship.
Sorry, but seeing that you are of the third generation, this is highly improbable. Assuming your grandfather was born before the commencement of the 1947 Citizenship Act, he was never eligible for citizenship by descent before 2015 because married Canadian women could not pass down citizenship to their children. Your grandfather would have had an opportunity to apply for a special grant of citizenship (i.e. naturalization) with the 1977 Act; but in order for your mother to have been eligible for citizenship by descent via your grandfather, she would have needed to have been born after he had gotten the grant because this grant was not retroactive to his date of birth. If she was born before this, she would not get citizenship because your grandfather was not deemed a citizen at that time.

If your grandfather did not apply for this grant before the legislation expired in 2004, then he would have been deemed a citizen by descent under the 2015 Act, but because of the first generation limit, your mother would not be eligible and thus, neither are you.
 
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Jul 1, 2019
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I thought as much. Too bad, living in upper upper New York I always loved Canada would have been happy to move. It was an interesting study to see the difference in immigration laws between the two countries. Not necessarily better, just different.
 

itsmyid

Champion Member
Jul 26, 2012
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I thought as much. Too bad, living in upper upper New York I always loved Canada would have been happy to move. It was an interesting study to see the difference in immigration laws between the two countries. Not necessarily better, just different.
Well, you probably don’t feel that strongly about it anyway, otherwise there are always other ways to immigrate to Canada
 

pclem

Newbie
Aug 15, 2021
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Hello Hawk and itsmyid, if you could please weigh in on my situation (I tried to post this separately but has been stuck in pending status):

GGF Born New Brunswick 1891, GGM born Quebec 1896 (their parents also born Canada going way back)
GGF and GGM immigrate to US in 1908 and 1911 respectively
GGF and GGM married 1915 in US (died 1973 and 1984 respectively, both in USA)
GF (my mother's father) born 1916 in Maine USA (died 2009 in USA)
GGF and GGM become naturalized US citizens in May 1920
Mother born 1952 in USA (died 2015 in USA) (she has three brothers still alive)
I was born 1985 in USA (does the 1977 provision allow my mother to be 'automatic' Canadian and me to be a first-generation removed?)
GF never applied for confirmation of or [personally] renounced his Canadian citizenship

Any chance in my case? How about for my uncles who are sons of my GF?

What I don't quite understand is how 'automatic' citizenship works. I read that children born to Canadian-citizen parents are automatically Canadian. In Ireland or Italy for example, you have citizenship whether or not it is ever recognized, and thus can pass it down. I also read that the 2009 one-generation limit was for children born 2009 or later and was not retroactive, but maybe that was incorrect.
 
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canuck78

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Jun 18, 2017
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Hello Hawk and itsmyid, if you could please weigh in on my situation:

GGF Born New Brunswick 1891, GGM born Quebec 1896 (their parents also born Canada going way back)
GGF and GGM immigrate to US in 1908 and1911 respectively
GGF and GGM married 1915 in US (died 1973 and 1984 respectively, both in USA)
GF (my mother's father) born 1916 in Maine USA (died 2009 in USA)
GGF and GGM become naturalized US citizens in May 1920
Mother born 1952 in USA (died 2015 in USA) (she has three brothers still alive)
I was born 1985 in USA
GF never applied for confirmation of or [personally] renounced his Canadian citizenship

Any chance in my case?

What I don't quite understand is how 'automatic' citizenship works. I read that children born to Canadian-citizen parents are automatically Canadian. In Ireland or Italy for example, you have citizenship whether or not it is ever recognized, and thus can pass it down. I also read that the 2009 one-generation limit was for children born 2009 or later and was not retroactive, but maybe that was incorrect.
No you are only a US citizen
 

scylla

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Hello Hawk and itsmyid, if you could please weigh in on my situation:

GGF Born New Brunswick 1891, GGM born Quebec 1896 (their parents also born Canada going way back)
GGF and GGM immigrate to US in 1908 and1911 respectively
GGF and GGM married 1915 in US (died 1973 and 1984 respectively, both in USA)
GF (my mother's father) born 1916 in Maine USA (died 2009 in USA)
GGF and GGM become naturalized US citizens in May 1920
Mother born 1952 in USA (died 2015 in USA) (she has three brothers still alive)
I was born 1985 in USA
GF never applied for confirmation of or [personally] renounced his Canadian citizenship

Any chance in my case?

What I don't quite understand is how 'automatic' citizenship works. I read that children born to Canadian-citizen parents are automatically Canadian. In Ireland or Italy for example, you have citizenship whether or not it is ever recognized, and thus can pass it down. I also read that the 2009 one-generation limit was for children born 2009 or later and was not retroactive, but maybe that was incorrect.
Unfortunately that's a common misinterpretation of the 2009 rule (the rules are a bit confusing). You are not entitled to Canadian citizenship. Essentially citizenship is only available to the first generation born abroad. It's a non-starter unfortunately.

If you are keen to immigrate to Canada, research the Express Entry economic immigration program and see how many points you have. If you have 470+ points, decent chance you would be selected if you enter the pool. Good luck.
 

pclem

Newbie
Aug 15, 2021
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Thanks. OK I thought there was a chance I might have skirted that due to the paternal maternal switch, where GF got it by being born prior to naturalization of his parents (thus making him/them only Canadian at the time), and could pass down to my mother since he was a man (pre-1947 law?), and then my mother could pass down to me based on 1977 law change, with me being born after that. Any conceivable eligibility for my uncles the sons of my GF?
 

pclem

Newbie
Aug 15, 2021
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This is from the Wikipedia article on Canadian nationality, just wanted to insert my case here, based on the premise (maybe incorrect) that my GF was a full/automatic/unqualified Canadian citizen at birth due to his two Canadian parents not being naturalized and him otherwise being stateless, and by virtue of him being born prior to 1947 after which point a declaration became necessary(?):

Birth overseas before 2009[edit]
From 1 January 1947 to 14 February 1977, children born abroad to a married Canadian father or unmarried Canadian mother acquired citizenship if their birth was registered at a Canadian diplomatic mission within two years of birth (did not happen with mother). The two-year registration limit was removed in 1977 and persons who were not previously registered were able to do so (second chance). Children of married Canadian mothers also became eligible in that year to apply for facilitated grants of citizenship. A 2004 Federal Court ruling further allowed children born abroad to unmarried Canadian fathers to apply for facilitated grants from 17 May 2004 until the registration period ended for all eligible individuals on 14 August 2004 (third chance missed). Individuals who became citizens through delayed registration received citizenship retroactive to birth, while those who received facilitated grants were not considered citizens retroactive to birth.[41][42] Those who failed to register or apply for a facilitated grant before 14 August 2004 automatically became citizens by descent on 17 April 2009.[43][44] (fourth chance given? the question is does this 'automatic becoming' go back to her birth or at least my birth; if not, could my uncles who are alive be eligible?)

Between 15 February 1977 and 17 April 2009, individuals born abroad to a Canadian parent automatically acquired citizenship at birth (could be me? even though she was Canadian by descent she could have been a citizen nevertheless under 'fourth chance' premise above?). However, those who were born abroad after the first generation between 15 February 1977 and 16 April 1981 automatically lost their citizenship unless they applied for retention before the age of 28 (not me, born 1985). These persons were required to have lived in Canada for at least one year before applying for retention or established a substantial connection with the country between the ages of 14 and 28. Individuals failing to apply for retention lost their citizenship even if they were living in Canada on their 28th birthday.[41]

Under Bill C-37 and Bill C-24 which went into effect on 17 April 2009 and 11 June 2015, respectively, Canadian citizenship was restored or granted for those who have involuntarily lost their Canadian citizenship under the 1947 Act or British subject status before 1947, as well as their children. (could this have automatically given my GF unqualified/full citizenship, in which my case my uncles are eligible as first-generation, or did they miss the window?)
 

pclem

Newbie
Aug 15, 2021
8
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This is from the actual statute, my commentary in italics:

Citizen by descent [paragraph 3(1)(b)]
Citizen’s date of birth:
on or after February 15, 1977
Paragraph 3(1)(b) sets out that a person is a Canadian citizen if that person is born outside Canada to a Canadian parent on or after February 15, 1977. (may refer to me)
Persons born outside Canada on or after April 17, 2009
Aside from a few exceptions described under subsection 3(5), the amendments to the Citizenship Act introduced on April 17, 2009, now generally limit citizenship by descent to persons who are born to a Canadian parent abroad in the first generation. Since April 17, 2009, a person who is born outside Canada to a Canadian parent is automatically a Canadian citizen by birth only if that person is of the first generation born outside Canada. (this seems to imply the first-generation limit isn't retroactive and applies to births post-April 2009)
Note: It is possible that a person born outside Canada to a Canadian parent on or after April 17, 2009, will be stateless because the person is not recognized as a Canadian citizen due in part to the first-generation limit (this again seems to imply that the limit does not go retroactive prior to 2009, which would seem more intuitive given that they sometimes bestow but rarely curtail rights retroactively) to citizenship by descent and in part to the person concerned not having acquired any other citizenship either by descent or by birth on soil because of other countries’ own domestic citizenship laws. In such cases, refer to subsection 5(5) of the Citizenship Act, which sets out the requirements for a grant of Canadian citizenship to stateless persons born outside Canada to a Canadian parent.
Persons born outside Canada between February 15, 1977, and April 16, 2009 (could this apply to me if my mother was considered a 'Canadian parent'? I guess that would hinge on whether the 2009 'automatic becoming,' if that applied to her, would qualify her as 'Canadian' in 1985; I'd argue it would, since if someone is something by descent, then they've been it for their entire lives)
During that period, a person born outside Canada to a Canadian parent was automatically a Canadian citizen regardless of whether they were born outside Canada after the first generation. (seems also to negate the first generation requirement, at least inside this time window, which I am as 1985 birth)
 

pclem

Newbie
Aug 15, 2021
8
0
See also, re: exclusions for 1977-1981 births:

Section 8 retention requirement
A person born outside Canada after the first generation to a Canadian parent was subject to the loss of citizenship under the former section 8 (repealed on April 17, 2009), which required the person to apply to retain their Canadian citizenship before attaining the age of 28. The retention requirements applied only if a person was born outside Canada on or after February 15, 1977, and that person automatically acquired citizenship by descent at the time of their birth because one of their parents was a citizen by virtue of paragraph 3(1)(b) or 3(1)(e). Failure to apply to retain citizenship resulted in the loss of citizenship at the age of 28. Due to the repeal of section 8 on April 17, 2009, persons who were born outside Canada on or after February 15, 1977, and who would have been subject to the retention requirements were not required to retain citizenship and therefore did not lose citizenship if they turned 28 on or after April 17, 2009 (which applies to me). However, the 2009 and 2015 legislative amendments to the Citizenship Act did not have the effect of restoring citizenship to persons who had previously ceased to be citizens prior to April 17, 2009, for failing to have retained citizenship under section 8 of the 1977 Act.
 

hawk39

Hero Member
Mar 26, 2017
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285
@pclem

Because Canadian citizenship began with the 1947 Act, your grandfather is governed by the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act 1914; under this law, because he was born to a British subject father, he was also deemed a British subject at birth when he was born in Maine. However, when his parents became US citizens and lost their British subject status, your grandfather also lost his British subject status automatically. Unless he had declared that he wanted to become a British subject between the age of 21 and 22 (which it seems he did not), when Canadian citizenship began in 1947, because he was not a British subject at that time, he was not deemed a Canadian citizen at that time; and because of that, when you mother was born, she was not eligible for Canadian citizenship by descent.

Your great-grandparents and grandfather became Canadian citizens with the 2015 Act under 3(1)(k) and 3(1)(o) respectively. 3(1)(k) grants citizenship to those that were born in Canada as British subjects, but lost it before 1947; 3(1)(o) grants citizenship to foreign-born children of (k) citizens. However, the first generation, under 3(3), implies that foreign-born children are not eligible for citizenship by descent if their parent became citizens by descent, including under (o). The result of this is that the first generation limit supersedes the retroactivity granted by the legislation; that is to so that each generation beyond the first can not claim citizenship based on the retroactivity of the previous generation.

(fourth chance given? the question is does this 'automatic becoming' go back to her birth or at least my birth; if not, could my uncles who are alive be eligible?)
Your mother was never eligible, and citizenship by descent was not automatic under the 1947 Act. In order for her to have been eligible, your grandfather needed to have become a Canadian citizen in 1947, and then she would have needed to have her birth registered with the Canadian government. If she was registered and because she would have turned 24 before the 1977 Act, she would also have needed to applied for retention of Canadian citizenship. If she did not register, then she could have registered herself during the delayed registration period between 1977 to 2004. Only if she did either of these scenarios would you be eligible for citizenship today. The same would also apply to your uncles, depending on if they also needed to apply for retention.

Between 15 February 1977 and 17 April 2009, individuals born abroad to a Canadian parent automatically acquired citizenship at birth (could be me? even though she was Canadian by descent she could have been a citizen nevertheless under 'fourth chance' premise above?).
That is true, but your mother was not Canadian in 1985, so you did not get citizenship when you were born.

Under Bill C-37 and Bill C-24 which went into effect on 17 April 2009 and 11 June 2015, respectively, Canadian citizenship was restored or granted for those who have involuntarily lost their Canadian citizenship under the 1947 Act or British subject status before 1947, as well as their children. (could this have automatically given my GF unqualified/full citizenship, in which my case my uncles are eligible as first-generation, or did they miss the window?)
Your grandfather's citizenship is and always will be by descent; the 2009 and 2015 Acts implemented the generational count. So in 2015, your grandfather became a first-generation citizen by descent, and his children became the second generation born abroad and ineligible for citizenship by descent (unless they had followed the scenarios I explained earlier).

Aside from a few exceptions described under subsection 3(5), the amendments to the Citizenship Act introduced on April 17, 2009, now generally limit citizenship by descent to persons who are born to a Canadian parent abroad in the first generation. Since April 17, 2009, a person who is born outside Canada to a Canadian parent is automatically a Canadian citizen by birth only if that person is of the first generation born outside Canada. (this seems to imply the first-generation limit isn't retroactive and applies to births post-April 2009)
As @scylla said, this is the common misconception that people think when they see that citizenship by descent is dated retroactively to the date of birth; in effect that would allow every generation to claim citizenship from the previous generation. This is exactly what the first generation limit is intended to prevent from happening. If someone wants to definitively assess their eligibility, they would need to read the legislation, figure out when section applies to their parent, which section applies to him/herself, and then cross-reference them under 3(3).

For your case, it would read like this: 'If the person is described under 3(1)(b) [you], this person is not a citizen if their parent is described under 3(1)(d) [your mother] but is also a citizen by descent'. If you want the legislative text:
(3) Paragraphs (1)(b), (f) to (j), (q) and (r) do not apply to a person born outside Canada
(b) if, at any time, only one of the person’s parents was a citizen and that parent was a citizen under any of the following provisions, or both of the person’s parents were citizens under any of the following provisions:
(i) paragraph 4(b) or 5(b) of the Canadian Citizenship Act, S.C. 1946, c. 15,

whereas the 1947 Act states under 5(b):
if he is born outside of Canada elsewhere than on a Canadian ship, and (i) his father, or in the case of a child born out of wedlock, his mother, at the time of that person’s birth, is a Canadian citizen by reason of having been born in Canada or on a Canadian ship, or having been granted a certificate of citizenship or having been a Canadian citizen at the commencement of this Act, and (ii) the fact of his birth is registered at a consulate or with the Minister, within two years after its occurrence or within such extended period as may be authorized in special cases by the Minister, in accordance with the regulations.​


Note: It is possible that a person born outside Canada to a Canadian parent on or after April 17, 2009, will be stateless because the person is not recognized as a Canadian citizen due in part to the first-generation limit (this again seems to imply that the limit does not go retroactive prior to 2009, which would seem more intuitive given that they sometimes bestow but rarely curtail rights retroactively) to citizenship by descent and in part to the person concerned not having acquired any other citizenship either by descent or by birth on soil because of other countries’ own domestic citizenship laws. In such cases, refer to subsection 5(5) of the Citizenship Act, which sets out the requirements for a grant of Canadian citizenship to stateless persons born outside Canada to a Canadian parent.
Because Canada is a signatory to a UN charter that attempts to eliminate statelessness, this would be an exception because there are countries that do not give citizenship to children via jus soli, or if their parents are not citizens of that country.

Persons born outside Canada between February 15, 1977, and April 16, 2009 (could this apply to me if my mother was considered a 'Canadian parent'? I guess that would hinge on whether the 2009 'automatic becoming,' if that applied to her, would qualify her as 'Canadian' in 1985; I'd argue it would, since if someone is something by descent, then they've been it for their entire lives)
During that period, a person born outside Canada to a Canadian parent was automatically a Canadian citizen regardless of whether they were born outside Canada after the first generation. (seems also to negate the first generation requirement, at least inside this time window, which I am as 1985 birth)
It would if your mother was considered a Canadian parent when you were born, but she was not. The chain ended when your grandfather lost his British subject status because his parents became US citizens. Despite gaining his citizenship with the 2015 Act to the date of his birth granted from the retroactivity, the first generation limit prevents your mother from claiming retroactive citizenship.
 
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pclem1

Newbie
Aug 17, 2021
3
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(My previous username kept getting stuck in pending/approval status so had to create a 'dual' username)
Thank you so much for the detailed response, Hawk. One problem was that I wasn't reading the actual law, I guess it was the federal government's commentary on the law on the canada.ca website, but it had outlined numbers and letters like a law sort of in order (but omitting certain sections from the commentary) which threw me off. I do see the second section 3(b) now in the law itself, which cuts off retroactivity for most second-generation foreign-born.

My thought/hope was that the limit only applied to people born after 2009, to prevent people (and their children) continuing to live outside Canada from claiming citizenship; in effect saying, hey we'll give you a pass for the 20th century, but if you want to continue calling your multiple generations Canadian, you have to come back to Canada. And I guess they still did give you a pass while living multiple generations outside Canada if you had made the simple filings back then, which isn't a ton to have asked.

It is pretty damn complicated, from what I've seen with these laws. I'm familiar with Irish and Italian dual-citizenship law (I'd be eligible on Italy's primary basis of birth needing to occur before naturalization, and was hoping the countries' laws had become similar due to the seeming 2009 retroactivity) and they're nothing in comparison.

My grandfather was vehemently, outspokenly against the concept of dual citizenship (and guessing my mom was too busy with life to be thinking about it for most of those years), so the odds of both those filings ever being made seem pretty close to zero. But I'm pretty big into genealogy myself, so I may send away for a couple documents I don't have, get the packet together and pay the $75 just on the off chance my grandfather's views on the subject evolved later, and there were secret plans to potentially return to Canada hatched at some point prior. Who knows. I certainly would've done so, but I'm always thinking of Plan Bs and Cs, often to the expense of Plan A.

Though maybe that's all moot, because my grandfather was already 31 years old in 1947, so he may not even have been eligible to make that British subject filing by that point (and he fought in WWII for the US, so I doubt he could've reclaimed it prior to then if that was even legally possible; but the US also probably took everyone they could get during the war and didn't inspect any past filings too carefully). Based on what I know, I absolutely won't be counting on anything.

Thanks again for taking the time to explain all that.
 

pclem1

Newbie
Aug 17, 2021
3
0
One more question Hawk or others:

I don't have actual proof that my GGM naturalized at the same time as my GGF, or at all. I also have records of entry into the US for my GGF, but not my GGM. I know it's a pretty unusual case, but could that change the scenario at all, or would one parent naturalizing cause loss of British Subject status?