Didn't meet the RO, but PR card renewal approved, how can I go back to Canada?

[nicklove128]

Hi everyone, thank you for your help in advance. Here's my situation.

After meeting the RO, I left Canada in Jan. 2013 and went back to Canada in Feb 2015 to renew the PR which was expiring in the same month.

I left Canada in March 2015 and remained outside of Canada till this day, which means NOW, counting the days backwards from today, I don't meet the RO. But they approved my pr renewal application this month and I got the new pr card mailed to my family in Canada today.

Here's what gets tricky, I have to stay outside of Canada until feb 2018 as I'm studying overseas. When I finish my degree here, I plan to go back to Canada and settle down there. If I go back by plane in feb 2018, will the custom check my pr status and somehow find out I didn't meet the RO and report me? Or it doesn't matter? what should I do? Please advise. Thank you!

 

[ramkris]

I found I mistyped my date of application. I applied the PR renewal in 2015, not 2014
My timeline is like this:
1. arrived in Canada as PR in 2009
2. left Canada in Jan 2013 after meeting the RO
3. Went back to Canada to apply for PR renewal in Feb 2015(right before the PR card expired)
4. left Canada in March 2015
5. PR renewal tranferred to secondary review in April 2015

Do you think I should wait and see what their decision will be? Thank you so much in advance.

Hi everyone, thank you for your help in advance. Here's my situation.

I left Canada in Jan. 2013 and went back to Canada in Feb 2014 to renew the PR which was expiring in the same month. I left Canada in March 2014 and remained outside of Canada till this day, which means I didn't meet the RO. But they approved my pr renewal application this month and I got the new pr card mailed to my family in Canada today.

Here's what gets tricky, I have to stay outside of Canada for another 1.5 year as I'm studying overseas. When I finish my degree here, I plan to go back to Canada and settle down there. If I go back by plane in 1.5 year, will the custom check my pr status and somehow find out I didn't meet the RO? Or it doesn't matter? what should I do? Please advise. Thank you!

Above statement is from one of your old posts. you came as pr in 2009 stayd for 4 yrs met RO applied for pr renewal left country.

Now you are with valid pr card with a expiry date in 2021 you may comeback in 2017 end still you hav 4 yrs left for pr expiry .you can easilycome with out any problems

 

[nicklove128]

Thank you for your quick reply.

I read on the forum that they can't the RO days backwards since the day of entry.

Say I go back to Canada today, counting 5 years backwards I didn't stay for 2 years in Canada which makes me not meet the RO. Since the earliest time I can go back is like Feb 2018, I'm afraid the custom will report me somehow for not meeting the RO.

I'm really confused about what to do. Do you think I can re-enter Canada by plane without being reported? Thank you so much for your help.

 

[dpenabill]

Now you are with valid pr card with a expiry date in 2021 you may comeback in 2017 end still you hav 4 yrs left for pr expiry .you can easilycome with out any problems

No!

Date of PR card expiration has NOTHING to do with the PR Residency Obligation.

In the OP's situation, nicklove128's situation, a crucial consideration is whether the PR card was approved and mailed based on H&C reasons or based on a conclusion the PR Residency Obligation was met as of the date the PR card application was made.

For example, if the decision was NOT based on H&C reasons, and nicklove128's family mails the PR card to him (or her), nicklove128 could be examined for compliance with the PR RO the next time nicklove128 comes to Canada, even if that is next week, and if nicklove128 has been outside Canada for more than 1095 days in the preceding five years, as of the date of arrival at the PoE, be reported for being in breach of the PR RO . . . unless nicklove128 can persuade the border officers there are sufficient H&C reasons for allowing him (or her) to retain PR status.

Similarly if the return to Canada is not for another year and a half. If the decision was not based on H&C reasons, the examination at the PoE will be based on the extent of absence during the five years preceding that date.

In both those scenarios, the expiration date on the PR card is not relevant.

It is a very different, and more complicated scenario, if H&C reasons are underlying the decision to issue and deliver a new PR card.

Which leads to . . . .

I don't meet the RO. But they approved my pr renewal application this month and I got the new pr card mailed to my family in Canada today.

Here's what gets tricky, I have to stay outside of Canada until feb 2018 as I'm studying overseas. When I finish my degree here, I plan to go back to Canada and settle down there. If I go back by plane in feb 2018, will the custom check my pr status and somehow find out I didn't meet the RO and report me? Or it doesn't matter? what should I do?

---- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

I read on the forum that they can't the RO days backwards since the day of entry.

Say I go back to Canada today, counting 5 years backwards I didn't stay for 2 years in Canada which makes me not meet the RO. Since the earliest time I can go back is like Feb 2018, I'm afraid the custom will report me somehow for not meeting the RO.

I'm really confused about what to do. Do you think I can re-enter Canada by plane without being reported? Thank you so much for your help.

No one here can reliably advise you what to do. That is a decision you will need to make for yourself.

As I noted above, if H&C reasons were not part of the application and decision to issue you a new PR card, the issuance of the PR card itself does not protect you from an examination for compliance with the PR RO any time you have contact with either CBSA or IRCC. If your family sends you the PR card, your next contact is likely to be when you arrive at a PoE upon coming to Canada. Whenever that is, you could face an examination for compliance with the PR RO, and the question will be whether, as of that date, you have been outside Canada for 1095 days within the preceding five years, again within five years as of that date. Alternatively, you could argue H&C reasons.


If H&C reasons are underlying the decision to issue and deliver the PR card:

That is more complicated. Good news but complicated.

In some, perhaps many respects, this gives you a pass for prior absences. To what extent I do not know. If you travel to Canada soon, however, the H&C decision should mean no PR RO questions, or at least no report for being in breach at the PoE. For how long into the future this will work, I cannot guess. I suspect it may depend on the particulars of the decision. But it might not, it might be essentially a pass for absences prior to the date the PR card is dated as issued. If the latter, you might be good to stay abroad for two more years, even up to three years (from the date the card indicates it was issued). But to be clear, I do NOT know this is the case.

Personally I would get family to send the PR card and then try to arrange a trip home as soon as possible, for however long you can come. Push comes to shove, how it goes at the PoE upon your arrival will be a big indicator. Be prepared to argue H&C reasons for absence, just in case. Worst case scenario is you get reported and have to appeal. You get to keep your PR card during the appeal. Return to school. Follow through on the appeal. Best to have a lawyer. And deal with how that works out when the time comes.

If there are no problems at the PoE upon your arrival, good news. Visit with family. Return to school. Make trips to Canada as often as practical.

Otherwise, at the least with the PR card in hand you will not need a PR Travel Document to travel to Canada, so when you are ready to come to Canada, you come. And if that happens to not be for another year and a half, be prepared to make your best H&C upon arrival. If waived through without being reported, you are good to stay. If reported, again you can appeal and stay and keep your PR card during the appeal, and if you then remain settled in Canada close to family in Canada while the appeal is pending, you would have at least a decent shot at keeping PR status. Choosing to go to school abroad does not make a strong H&C case, but for a young person and in certain circumstances, particularly with extensive family settled in Canada, there should be a relatively decent chance of keeping PR status.

 

[nicklove128]

Thank you very much for your detailed answer.

I left Canada to travel overseas, met my wife here and got married. Then I went to study in a local university because they offered me sholarship, which is really important to me because I have financial troubles. My mom and brother still live in Canada and they already got the citizenship.

I'm not sure my situation can be accepted as H&C situations.

I saw on the forum that crossing the UA& Canada border by car is less risky. I'm confused which way has better chances of not being reported. Could you please advise? Thank you so much!

 

[ttrajan]

When you enter Canada if your PR card have more than 2 years validity then there should not be any problem.

 

[dpenabill]

When you enter Canada if your PR card have more than 2 years validity then there should not be any problem.

Again, this is not true.

The validity date on the PR card is not relevant to compliance with the PR Residency Obligation.

It is only coincidentally pertinent for PRs who have been a PR for less than five years. During the first five years, a PR's compliance with the Residency Obligation is assessed based on days present so far plus days remaining until the fifth year anniversary of landing. The first PR card typically expires around a month to three months after the fifth year anniversary. So while the expiration date is not really connected to the PR RO, if it is more than two years away that tends to mean the new (less than five years) PR still has approximately that amount of time left to meet the PR RO.

But once the fifth year anniversary of landing has passed, the PR card's expiration date is not relevant, totally irrelevant.

Once the fifth year anniversary of landing has passed, if a PR with a valid PR card arrives at a Canadian PoE, and an officer perceives that the PR has been outside Canada for three years within the five years preceding that date, the date the PR is at the PoE, it does not matter if the PR card is valid for another three or four years, let alone two. A 44(1) Report and Departure Order can be issued.

In the past, presenting a valid PR card at the PoE appeared to generally get a pass regardless how much time the PR had been spending outside Canada. And this was especially so if the PR card was valid for at least a couple more years. But that has been past history for sometime now. And while it was under Conservative government leadership that the, in effect, crackdown on enforcing the PR RO began, it appears that IRCC and CBSA under Liberal leadership are continuing a policy of increased screening and enforcement.

That said, sure it is likely that the actual risk of being examined regarding compliance with the PR RO decreases if the expiration of the card is further in the future, at least more than two years. The issuance of a new card indicates a Residency Determination was done as of that date, and thus that as of that date the PR was in compliance. Which suggests the odds of still being in compliance is good. Which encourages the border officer to waive the PR through rather than initiate an examination as to compliance with the PR RO.

But the experience of most PRs at the PoE is due, in large part, to their personal circumstances, in large part because there are no indications of a potential breach of the PR RO. In contrast, for PRs who are in breach, usually or even most often there are overt indicators . . . and PoE officers are instructed regarding what to look for in this regard.

The trend appears clear: more PRs are being screened and reported despite presenting valid PR cards at the PoE.

I left Canada to travel overseas, met my wife here and got married. Then I went to study in a local university because they offered me sholarship, which is really important to me because I have financial troubles. My mom and brother still live in Canada and they already got the citizenship.

I'm not sure my situation can be accepted as H&C situations.

I saw on the forum that crossing the UA& Canada border by car is less risky. I'm confused which way has better chances of not being reported. Could you please advise?

How it will go at the border, and how persuasive your H&C reasons are if you need to make a case based on H&C reasons, is very difficult to predict. The best I can offer I already have.

The sooner you come, for example, the better . . . but how it will actually go will depend on many other factors.

There were plenty of reports in the past that a land-crossing PoE tended to be easier for PRs with potential PR RO issues. My sense is those are outdated now. Moreover, many of those reports were more about using a land border crossing if the PR did not have a valid PR card and could not board a flight to Canada. There are also some differences in the procedure which might help. Those flying to Canada typically complete a customs declaration card in which the traveler must indicate how long he or she was outside Canada. Misrepresentations in this are, of course, a crime. But admitting up front a very long absence (and for sure one three years or longer) basically announces to the screening officer there is at least a potential PR RO compliance issue. In contrast, when driving across the border, in the past many times the PR is not asked how long he or she was outside Canada and moreover, even if asked this is an oral exchange, not a written declaration. I cannot guess to what extent this question is likely to be asked. Seems like I have been asked it every crossing for at least a couple years now, but it is not like I am keeping track of this.

Overall, for a PR with a valid PR card, my sense is there is not much difference between arriving by air or by land . . . and indeed, the latter could invite further questions if the officer wonders why the PR did not just fly to Canada. The personality of the individual screening officer, or what is in the criteria-of-the-day, or some other incidental factor, can have as much impact on how it goes as which PoE is used.

 

[Tri-Cities]

I believe that @dpenabill's statement is most accurate.

Whenever I / we crossed borders (into Canada) we had to show our PR card AND we were always asked where we had been, for what reason and for how long. Even though it doesn't mean that every officer asks a PR those questions, it happens a lot.

Don't mix up being a PR with having a valid PR card! A valid PR card does not make up not meeting the RO's of a PR! Like my daughter....she has a valid PR card (2019) but she will be in trouble sooner or later for not meeting her PR RO's because she's studying back home. She might has to give up her status.

On top if / when Canada (CBSA) does record a PR's travel times one really has to be careful.

 

[nicklove128]

Overall, for a PR with a valid PR card, my sense is there is not much difference between arriving by air or by land . . . and indeed, the latter could invite further questions if the officer wonders why the PR did not just fly to Canada. The personality of the individual screening officer, or what is in the criteria-of-the-day, or some other incidental factor, can have as much impact on how it goes as which PoE is used.

Dear dpenabill, thank you so much for your detailed answer again.

My plan is that when the time comes, I go first with my wife to the US as tourists. And then we will take the taxi to cross the border from Buffallo on our way back home which is not that close, but if we're asked, we will say that we want to make a stop to Toronto to visit my friends.

As I have never done that before, I'm not sure how much it costs to take a taxi from Buffalo to Toronto. If it's cheaper than the flight (is it?), I think I'll have a good reason for doing so without the officers wondering about my intentions. Or should I go by train?

I'm really confused, but from what you've explained me, I think I'll have a better chance of not being reported if I go from the border without being suspected by the officers there. What do you think of the plan?

Thank you so very much for your great help!

 

[Rob_TO]

I'm really confused, but from what you've explained me, I think I'll have a better chance of not being reported if I go from the border without being suspected by the officers there. What do you think of the plan?

There are no stats that say its more or less likely to be reported by CBSA at a land crossing vs airport. It really depends on the specific CBSA officer you happen to get, and how many questions they want to ask you. While you don't need to volunteer certain info, you must not lie if they ask (like how long you were out of Canada in total).