Crossing the Border

[johns09tj]

Not sure what to do. Here are some facts about us.

#1: We are married
#2: We are moving to Sarnia, Ontario in the beginning of September (11 days).
#3: She is a Canadian citizen, I am an American citizen.
#4: I will be working in America (Pt. Huron, Michigan).
#5. I will be crossing at the BlueWater Bridge (Sarnia/Pt. Huron).

Okay, there are many different options online and on the CIC website, and we are kind of confused as to what to do.
QUESTION: Do I need a visa or ANYTHING at all to LIVE in Canada and WORK in the United States. Some places say yes, I need a visa, the CIC website says I do not because I am an American citizen. However, with crossing the border every day, I need to know what exactly I need to do.

QUESTION: Is applying for a PR card necessary if I do NOT plan on working/studying in Canada. I understand that applying for a PR card through marital sponsorship is possible, but is it necessary for me to cross the border every day.
- Due to some family issues, my wife is unemployed and will be finding employment when we move to Sarnia, would this be a problem for the financial section of the application if we need to fill it out OR can we wait to fill out the application until she establishes employment to avoid denial?

QUESTION: What is an applicable toll free number from outside of Canada to call, I.e. the border/customs that does not involve a 10 minute long recorded voice message before telling me I can hang up. I would like to talk to a human (not a recorded voice).

Note: we know that we are on a time crunch, we just wanted to make sure what we are turning in is correct before actually turning it in. Does anybody suggest us going and talking to the border directly on either side to see if they have better information regarding immigration (or the possibility of not needing to).

In conclusion: Do I need any visa/ forms filled out/ sponsorship to live in Sarnia and work in Michigan?

Thanks much!
Tara

 

[scylla]

Unfortunately there are a number of problems with your plan and you're very short on time to do anything about them.

The first issue is that you're not allowed to "live" in Canada. You can visit - but not live. If it starts looking like you're living in Canada - you could run into issues at the border (i.e. be denied entry).

To be allowed to live in Canada, you either need to be a permanent resident or have a temporary visa that allows you to live here. Your wife can sponsor you for PR, but the processing takes many months (nevermind the months it will likely take you to get the paperwork together) - so you're not going to have that in place for September. A study visa would allow you to live in Canada - but that's not going to work for you. A work visa would allow you to live in Canada as well - however to qualify you need a full time job offer in Canada.

Right now you can only enter Canada as a visitor. This allows you to stay 6 months before you either have to leave or apply for an extension. However it sounds like you plan on going back and forth across the border weekdays for work. This is only going to work for so long (impossible to say how long - could be days - could be weeks). After a certain point, you're going to start running into issues with Canadian immigration since you'll be behaving as someone who is living in Canada rather than just visiting. "Running into issues with Canadian immigration" might mean you're given a stern warning, might mean your denied access to Canada or in extreme cases, might get you a one year ban from entering the country (rare, but we've seen examples involving Americans).

Here's what I would do in your shoes:

1) Change your plans and continue living in the US for now.
2) Have your wife submit the sponsorship application ASAP.
3) Once you are approved for PR, move to Canada.

If you're not willing to defer the move to Canada, then I would get a Nexus card and then put a plan in place for what you will do if you're denied entry back into Canada.

 

[frege]

Unfortunately there are a number of problems with your plan and you're very short on time to do anything about them.

The first issue is that you're not allowed to "live" in Canada. You can visit - but not live. If it starts looking like you're living in Canada - you could run into issues at the border (i.e. be denied entry).

To be allowed to live in Canada, you either need to be a permanent resident or have a temporary visa that allows you to live here. Your wife can sponsor you for PR, but the processing takes many months (nevermind the months it will likely take you to get the paperwork together) - so you're not going to have that in place for September. A study visa would allow you to live in Canada - but that's not going to work for you. A work visa would allow you to live in Canada as well - however to qualify you need a full time job offer in Canada.

Right now you can only enter Canada as a visitor. This allows you to stay 6 months before you either have to leave or apply for an extension. However it sounds like you plan on going back and forth across the border weekdays for work. This is only going to work for so long (impossible to say how long - could be days - could be weeks). After a certain point, you're going to start running into issues with Canadian immigration since you'll be behaving as someone who is living in Canada rather than just visiting. "Running into issues with Canadian immigration" might mean you're given a stern warning, might mean your denied access to Canada or in extreme cases, might get you a one year ban from entering the country (rare, but we've seen examples involving Americans).

Here's what I would do in your shoes:

1) Change your plans and continue living in the US for now.
2) Have your wife submit the sponsorship application ASAP.
3) Once you are approved for PR, move to Canada.

If you're not willing to defer the move to Canada, then I would get a Nexus card and then put a plan in place for what you will do if you're denied entry back into Canada.

Scylla,

I've been looking at the CIC operational manuals, and to the best of my ability I can't find where it says that you can't live in Canada and commute in this way indefinitely.

What they say is that you can't work or study in Canada and you can't outstay your authorization to remain in Canada. Since you're routinely granted 6 months, if you leave the next day, you're obviously complying with the last requirement. Also, employment in the US just across the border is terrific proof you won't be working in Canada or needing to work there.

13.17. Conditions imposed on temporary residents

R183 (1) provides for the following general conditions that are automatically imposed on all
temporary residents:
- to leave Canada by the end of their authorized period of stay;
- to not work, unless they have been issued a work permit or are exempt from the requirement
to obtain a work permit pursuant to R186 and R187; and
- to not study, unless they have been issued a study permit or are exempt from the requirement
to obtain a study permit pursuant to R188 and R189.

[...]

13.18. Duration of temporary resident status

R183(2) states that the period authorized for the stay of a temporary resident is six months or any
other period that an officer imposes based on the following criteria:
- the temporary resident's means of support in Canada;
- the period for which the temporary resident applies to stay; and
- the expiry of the temporary resident's passport or other travel document.

Source: Manual ENF 4

Since I don't have any practical experience with this, I may just be misreading things. But can you point me to a source that says what you're saying?

 

[frege]

QUESTION: Do I need a visa or ANYTHING at all to LIVE in Canada and WORK in the United States. Some places say yes, I need a visa, the CIC website says I do not because I am an American citizen. However, with crossing the border every day, I need to know what exactly I need to do.

I'm not certain, but at the moment I don't think you need anything like that. Scylla says you do. One way to find out would be to:

1) Call the CBSA; or
2) go and actually ask the people at the border crossing you'll be using.

QUESTION: Is applying for a PR card necessary if I do NOT plan on working/studying in Canada. I understand that applying for a PR card through marital sponsorship is possible, but is it necessary for me to cross the border every day.

Based on my understanding of things, no, it's not necessary, as I said above.

However, it is probably preferable for a whole host of reasons, not least of which are health care, eligibility for OAS later in life, possibly losing residency in Michigan for some purpose or other under state law (without becoming a resident of Canada), etc. Taxes will be more complicated, too, as you might be a Canadian resident for tax purposes.

Probably, if you don't apply, there will be a certain level of puzzlement on the part of CIC when you apply later, and possibly by border officers. However, that doesn't mean you'd be doing anything wrong.

- Due to some family issues, my wife is unemployed and will be finding employment when we move to Sarnia, would this be a problem for the financial section of the application if we need to fill it out OR can we wait to fill out the application until she establishes employment to avoid denial?

If she doesn't go on welfare during the application process, you'll be fine. The financial requirement for spouses is based on the expected incomes of both of them after PR is achieved.

Although they do ask about her employment, that's so they can make a determination about your chances of supporting yourselves as a couple. So if you have good employability, you'll be fine.

QUESTION: What is an applicable toll free number from outside of Canada to call, I.e. the border/customs that does not involve a 10 minute long recorded voice message before telling me I can hang up. I would like to talk to a human (not a recorded voice).

I wish I knew the answer to this question!

Are you talking about CIC or the CBSA?

The best thing you can do is navigate through till you reach a human, and then memorize the numbers you selected. Then you won't have to listen to the messages before selecting your options.

 

[Alurra71]

Ok, being essenitally in the same situation as the OP finds himself .. only my crossing was Ambassador Bridge (Detroit/Windsor)

You are going to need to do some kind of sponsorship paperwork to get your PR card if you wish to continue living in Canada with your wife. I don't know what exact law applies to this, but it was quoted and shown to me by a CBSA agent.

On the easy side of this. When you get to the border. Inform the agent there that you would like to get a visitor record included in your passport. You will need your marriage certificate. Tell them you want to come stay with your wife while you get the paperwork started for your PR. Let them know you are only in the beginning phases so if they could give you 6 months or a year that would be great. Be nice, be courteous, smile a LOT and no matter what silly questions they ask you or keep you waiting for a long time, do NOT get snarky with them. I'm not saying you would, I'm just telling you from what I've witnessed first hand. Not a good idea!

Once they give you the visitor record in your passport, you should be able to cross back and forth with relative ease. You and your wife will want to start collecting the forms and necessary proofs and I would recommend applying OUTLAND because of your work situation.

Oh, you don't need any kind of actual visa to enter/exit Canada as an American. It is only the visitor record.

Just a few pointers for you. If you have any kind of criminal record, DUI, multiple unpaid traffic fines that caused you to get a bench warrant, anything silly of that nature that you were put into cuffs for, get that cleared up and 'pardoned' asap. If you have a DUI on your record, I can promise you one thing; a refusal at the border and a turn around back to the states as 'inadmissable until further notice' They view DUI over here as a criminal offense and it must be pardoned.

Anyhow, that wasn't aimed at scaring you, only showing you how simple or difficult it could potentially be depending on if you are a 'good' boy or a 'bad' boy LOL

 

[scylla]

I've been looking at the CIC operational manuals, and to the best of my ability I can't find where it says that you can't live in Canada and commute in this way indefinitely.

I can't point you to anything in writing.

All I can say is that the experiences of my husband and several friends (all American) clearly indicate that if you cross back and forth a fair amout and are spending more time in Canada than in the US, sooner or later Canadian immigration gets upset. My husband was traveling out of Canada a couple of times a month. The 3-4 times he was sent to secondar inspection, he got off OK because we had already filed the PR application and he could prove this, he had several properties in the US (ties) and also significant assets in the US (more ties). A good friend of mine wasn't so luck and spent two hours being questioned until they finally decided to let her in. The IO she was dealing with was kind enough to tell her that she should stay in Canada until her PR is approved because the next officer might flat out refuse her entry or even ban her because she was trying to live in Canada without being authorized to live in Canada (she was traveling in and out about twice a month as well). I have more stories but I'll stop there. Oh - and my husband and all of my friend have Nexus card. So these experiences happened even with the Nexus card. Each time you cross the border you are re-assessed as a visitor. That's the simple problem.

 

[scylla]

Oh - and if you want to hear this straight from the horse's mouth (so to speak) - there was a recent episode of that Canada Border Security reality show that covered this. It's a reality show that follows Canadian border officer and patrol staff and shows the situations they deal with. The episode featured a woman from France (I think???) running into problems because it looked like she was coming to Canada to "live" rather than just visit her significant partner. I believe was sent home (not banned, just sent home on the next flight). For each segment, they always have the officer explain why the situation is a problem and why a specific action was taken. I'll admit the show is a bit cheesy - but it's hard to turn away.

There was also a horror story here not too long ago where an American girl was living with her husband/common law partner in Canada and they used to regularly go across the border to shop at Walmart and get cheap gas. One day on the way home immigration put her into secondary and then slapped her with a one year ban from entering Canada for the whole "behaving like you're living here" thing. I also know one Canadian who was banned for a year (I think?) from the US for the same reason (i.e. behaving like you live there).

As someone who lived through it for over a year while we were waiting to collect the paperwork and have the application processed, my husband's frequent border crossings honestly felt like Russian roulette. Each time he was pulled into secondary inspection I would get worried his passport had been flagged and he might not be allowed in the next time. We even had a plan B in place in case he was ever turned away.

 

[zardoz]

On that same show, they had a lady with a small child in tow who they also decided was "residing in Canada without authority", even though they had filed for PR as a married couple. She was also turned back at the land border.

Border Security: Canada's Front Line
Season 1 : Episode 12

It can/does/will happen depending on just how lucky you continue to be. You have to be lucky every time, CBSA only need to be lucky once.

 

[scylla]

Thanks Zardoz! I am so glad to discover I'm not the only one who watches that show. I was a little embarrassed to admit it.

 

[zardoz]

Thanks Zardoz! I am so glad to discover I'm not the only one who watches that show. I was a little embarrassed to admit it.

I watched it on YouTube before the episodes were removed. It's now been to the UK and we watched it again. It's very interesting to see how people that have either decided to try and scam, or have done no research get identified and then removed. In fact, it's actually got my wife wondering about a career in either CBSA or CIC ;D

 

[frege]

Oh - and if you want to hear this straight from the horse's mouth (so to speak) - there was a recent episode of that Canada Border Security reality show that covered this. It's a reality show that follows Canadian border officer and patrol staff and shows the situations they deal with. The episode featured a woman from France (I think???) running into problems because it looked like she was coming to Canada to "live" rather than just visit her significant partner. I believe was sent home (not banned, just sent home on the next flight). For each segment, they always have the officer explain why the situation is a problem and why a specific action was taken. I'll admit the show is a bit cheesy - but it's hard to turn away.

There was also a horror story here not too long ago where an American girl was living with her husband/common law partner in Canada and they used to regularly go across the border to shop at Walmart and get cheap gas. One day on the way home immigration put her into secondary and then slapped her with a one year ban from entering Canada for the whole "behaving like you're living here" thing. I also know one Canadian who was banned for a year (I think?) from the US for the same reason (i.e. behaving like you live there).

As someone who lived through it for over a year while we were waiting to collect the paperwork and have the application processed, my husband's frequent border crossings honestly felt like Russian roulette. Each time he was pulled into secondary inspection I would get worried his passport had been flagged and he might not be allowed in the next time. We even had a plan B in place in case he was ever turned away.

The thing about "acting like you live here" - that's definitely in the official instructions given to US immigration officials. The wording is something like "spending more time in the United States than outside it."

But with respect to Canada, my impression is that, at least in theory, looking like you live in Canada is a potential problem only because it's an indication you might be working illegally or might intend to overstay your authorization. It's true that they're supposed to look for ties to the home country, but that's only because a lack of them would show a greater likelihood of violating immigration rules. And the rules themselves, as far as I can tell, don't talk about "living" in Canada, just working or studying or overstaying.

Proof of employment in the US would appear to be a terrific defence here. So I'd be interested in hearing specifically about cases of people commuting daily across the border to work in the US.

My impression, unless someone can point to something definitive, is that these are cases of overzealous border officers misapplying the rules. That doesn't mean that the experiences you or others have had are any less real, of course, and as you say, the problem is the sheer number of officers who are going to make determinations, and when one of them, out of hundreds, will choose to insist on your ties to your home country.

That's why in a situation like this, if possible, it might be a good idea to speak to a person at the border crossing you'll be using so that they know you and can make a correct determination once and for all.

That being said, it may still be the case that I'm simply missing something in the rules.