CEC PR Quebec to Ontario (but not immediately)

[Lollo]

Hi,

While living and working in Quebec, I applied for PR through CEC with Ontario as my preferred province. I was successful after submitting a letter stating my strong and sincere intent to move to Ontario and acknowledged that using CEC was not for residing in Quebec.

I used a relative's address in Ontario and received my PR card in late 2016 after an inland landing in Ottawa. I never officially resided at that address however.

Despite receiving my PR card and applying and interviewing for numerous jobs in Ontario I was not able to move there officially until around 15-16 months later... I did however move there eventually and have now lived and worked there since early 2018. So i've now been resident in Ontario for 2 years and would like to apply for my citizenship soon. I arrived with a work permit originally in 2013 so have accumulated enough days to apply.

Will my not having moved from Quebec to Ontario immediately be an issue? My intention was always to move but I did not want to quit my job before finding a new one. I actually applied for over 500 jobs (no exaggeration) during that period and travelled to Ontario and interviewed for some but just was never successful until Jan 2018.

Any help advice would be much appreciated.

 

[Lollo]

By the way, I never received any conditions from immigration and submitted my letter of intent as part of my application up front. However my letter acknowledged that I understood that cec was not for staying in Quebec. I just assumed I’d find a job more quickly than I did. While a pr I did leave the country on work and on re entering I did give my relatives address when asked. And immigration still have that address as I’ve never thought to update it as it’s not on the card. I subsequently have Ontario driving licence and health cards etc. I never had any health or driving licence while in quebec. I’ve also made sure to file my taxes etc.

I’ve subsequently had government clearance background checks and never had an issue and listed my relatives address for the few months I used it when asked for previous addresses along with my quebecaddress that I used while looking for work until I had my new official Ontario address where I currently reside. Not sure if that affects anything but thought it might be useful information in answering my question.

 

[jddd]

Hi,

While living and working in Quebec, I applied for PR through CEC with Ontario as my preferred province. I was successful after submitting a letter stating my strong and sincere intent to move to Ontario and acknowledged that using CEC was not for residing in Quebec.

I used a relative's address in Ontario and received my PR card in late 2016 after an inland landing in Ottawa. I never officially resided at that address however.

Despite receiving my PR card and applying and interviewing for numerous jobs in Ontario I was not able to move there officially until around 15-16 months later... I did however move there eventually and have now lived and worked there since early 2018. So i've now been resident in Ontario for 2 years and would like to apply for my citizenship soon. I arrived with a work permit originally in 2013 so have accumulated enough days to apply.

Will my not having moved from Quebec to Ontario immediately be an issue? My intention was always to move but I did not want to quit my job before finding a new one. I actually applied for over 500 jobs (no exaggeration) during that period and travelled to Ontario and interviewed for some but just was never successful until Jan 2018.

Any help advice would be much appreciated.

Just here to say that your temporary residence in 2013 won’t count for citizenship. Only those from January 20, 2015 to present will count.

When calculating your time in Canada:

• only the five (5) years immediately before the date of your application are taken into account;
• each day you were physically present in Canada as an authorized temporary resident or protected person before you became a permanent resident counts as half a day (up to a maximum of 365 days);

https://eservices.cic.gc.ca/rescalc/redir.do;jsessionid=BCC620EF6B6B00B4E0F95734ECD759F1?redir=faq#Q1

 

[canuck78]

Hard to say whether remaining in Quebec will cause issues.

 

[Lollo]

Just here to say that your temporary residence in 2013 won’t count for citizenship. Only those from January 20, 2015 to present will count.

When calculating your time in Canada:

• only the five (5) years immediately before the date of your application are taken into account;
• each day you were physically present in Canada as an authorized temporary resident or protected person before you became a permanent resident counts as half a day (up to a maximum of 365 days);

https://eservices.cic.gc.ca/rescalc/redir.do;jsessionid=BCC620EF6B6B00B4E0F95734ECD759F1?redir=faq#Q1

Hi jdd,

Thanks for your reply. I arrived on a work permit in 2013 and renewed. So I've been in Canada since 2013, legally, and can count the time I spent since January 2015. I should have wrote I've been legally resident in Canada SINCE 2013.

I've been a permanent resident for over 3 years also so I think I should be ok regarding my days resident in the country. Just worried about whether I fulfilled my permanent residency obligations or not and am very concerned about that aspect. Thanks again for the clarification.

 

[Lollo]

Hard to say whether remaining in Quebec will cause issues.

Yes, hopefully someone might have an insight into this. As I've lived in Ontario for a number of years and have fulfilled what I stated when I applied, I hope that suffices. It was just the speed at which I left Quebec for Ontario that's at issue...

 

[canuck78]

Yes, hopefully someone might have an insight into this. As I've lived in Ontario for a number of years and have fulfilled what I stated when I applied, I hope that suffices. It was just the speed at which I left Quebec for Ontario that's at issue...

It was pretty clear that to get approved you needed to move out of Quebec right away.

 

[Lollo]

It was pretty clear that to get approved you needed to move out of Quebec right away.

So I guess I should pack up and move back to my home country before I need to renew my PR and not think about citizenship or staying?

 

[canuck78]

So I guess I should pack up and move back to my home country before I need to renew my PR and not think about citizenship or staying?

Not saying that. You have to wait and see what happens. Nobody can predict. I think it is 7 likely you will be stripped of your PR but it’s not up to me. Just saying your are a bit in denial that you only postponed your move when you didn’t follow the conditions of getting the PR.

 

[Lollo]

Yes, hopefully someone might have an insight into this. As I've lived in Ontario for a number of years and have fulfilled what I stated when I applied, I hope that suffices. It was just the speed at which I left Quebec for Ontario that's at issue...

That’s fair enough. I’m not in denial, I was more just trying to be optimistic that what you said above and what I feared, might not be the case. I hoped I was worrying unnecessarily. I was about to put a 20% deposit on a home etc., which I’m definitely not going to do now. But rather than be stripped of anything, I’d rather just fall on my sword and jump before I’m pushed if that’s make sense.

Thanks for your thoughts on my situation.

 

[armoured]

That’s fair enough. I’m not in denial, I was more just trying to be optimistic that what you said above and what I feared, might not be the case. I hoped I was worrying unnecessarily. I was about to put a 20% deposit on a home etc., which I’m definitely not going to do now. But rather than be stripped of anything, I’d rather just fall on my sword and jump before I’m pushed if that’s make sense.

Thanks for your thoughts on my situation.

My own thoughts on this - with caveat that I am not familiar with the details of the obligations under CEC - so first a question - what documents did you sign (and/or receive) that detail exactly what you committed yourself to doing?

Now the thoughts:
1) First, deep breath and relax. You have PR status and you seem to be compliant with your residency obligation now. You have a fair amount of rights as a PR and little imminent prospect of anyone questioning that status unless something changes. There would be a process before much of anything could happen to change that status.
2) See a lawyer with experience specifically in immigration and citizenship, and before you apply for citizenship.

I suspect that the answer will be that unless you signed or were formally notified of a formal commitment to perform specific acts (i.e. move out of Quebec within a certain period of time) or you purposefully (demonstrably) misrepresented something, that you may be okay and the issue is no longer relevant. But that's only a guess. If there is some issue, there may well be ways to address it, and certainly you can get information on the possible repercussions. And this is before considering whether the government or courts/tribunals tend to be lenient or provide exceptions or just waive the matter for those who have since performed/complied with the original intent after the fact.

Period of time: a lawyer would have to address, but I believe such a commitment would have to be very specifically and precisely spelled out in terms of time frame and performance/evidence requirements to be meaningfully enforced. I.e. any language short of specific dates or 'immediate' (or other language generally recognised in common law) would simply have no effect.

 

[Lollo]

My own thoughts on this - with caveat that I am not familiar with the details of the obligations under CEC - so first a question - what documents did you sign (and/or receive) that detail exactly what you committed yourself to doing?

Now the thoughts:
1) First, deep breath and relax. You have PR status and you seem to be compliant with your residency obligation now. You have a fair amount of rights as a PR and little imminent prospect of anyone questioning that status unless something changes. There would be a process before much of anything could happen to change that status.
2) See a lawyer with experience specifically in immigration and citizenship, and before you apply for citizenship.

I suspect that the answer will be that unless you signed or were formally notified of a formal commitment to perform specific acts (i.e. move out of Quebec within a certain period of time) or you purposefully (demonstrably) misrepresented something, that you may be okay and the issue is no longer relevant. But that's only a guess. If there is some issue, there may well be ways to address it, and certainly you can get information on the possible repercussions. And this is before considering whether the government or courts/tribunals tend to be lenient or provide exceptions or just waive the matter for those who have since performed/complied with the original intent after the fact.

Period of time: a lawyer would have to address, but I believe such a commitment would have to be very specifically and precisely spelled out in terms of time frame and performance/evidence requirements to be meaningfully enforced. I.e. any language short of specific dates or 'immediate' (or other language generally recognised in common law) would simply have no effect.

Hi,

Thank you for giving me a little hope. I probably will consult a professional and see what if any options there are.

Basically in my application for CEC (after I was selected) I proactively, upfront, provided a letter stating that I understood Express Entry was a federal programme and not be used to become a PR and settle in Quebec. I stated my rational for wanting to move to Ontario and why I chose that as my preferred destination. No-one ever set me certain conditions, a time frame to comply with that undertaking or anything like that. But my letter was very clear that PR was not for staying in Quebec and that I'd undertake to move to Ontario ASAP. So in my opinion I have not complied with my undertakings in that letter. If I did, I should have gone to my boss right after I received my PR, quit my job, left my apartment and moved to Ontario in days and I did not.

I was on a bridging open work permit at the time of my PR which was valid for another year but it obviously expired when I became a PR. I never had any driving licence, health card in Quebec etc. but my job was there and I filed my taxes there. It was always my intention to move to Ontario and I have. It just took me longer than I anticipated as I was unwilling to quit my job before finding another one. I genuinely made every effort to find a job in Ontario as fast as possible but it just didn't happen as quickly as I'd anticipated. If I'd quit my job and just taken anything for the sake of it, it felt like career suicide and potentially financial suicide if there was any gap between leaving one job and starting another one. But that is nothing to do with immigration. That's just the mismatch between a bureaucratic and legal process and the reality of life.

Soon as I got offered a job in Ontario, I moved and only then did I update my SIN number, get a driving licence and health card etc, and started filing my taxes there. As a PR in Quebec, I basically applied for jobs almost daily in Ontario. Essentially, I've lived as a PR in Ontario for 2/3rds of the time since I was granted that status and I intend remaining there for the foreseeable future. If I wait longer I will have been in Ontario for nearly 4 years of the 5 that my residency permit is valid for. It's my slow exit from Quebec that's the issue. In the big picture I have fulfilled what I said I would and am living and working in Ontario. But I do think I was delinquent in the amount of time it took me to get there but no-one ever stated that I must move there by x day or with y time frame. The only person who mentioned that was me in my letter of intent.

Thanks again for taking the time to outline some options.

 

[armoured]

Hi,

Thank you for giving me a little hope. I probably will consult a professional and see what if any options there are.

Basically in my application for CEC (after I was selected) I proactively, upfront, provided a letter stating that I understood Express Entry was a federal programme and not be used to become a PR and settle in Quebec.
...
It's my slow exit from Quebec that's the issue. In the big picture I have fulfilled what I said I would and am living and working in Ontario. But I do think I was delinquent in the amount of time it took me to get there but no-one ever stated that I must move there by x day or with y time frame. The only person who mentioned that was me in my letter of intent.

Thanks again for taking the time to outline some options.

Again, I am not a lawyer and I am not giving advice. But I've worked with many lawyers over the years having to deal with some thorny areas (NOT immigration related).

But I bolded some areas above.

1) I truly admire your sense of conscience and duty about fulfilling the terms of what you engaged yourself to do. I am not in the least being sarcastic, it is admirable.

2) BUT: assuming you have told the full story above, and the text faithfully represents the original: you did not commit to a specific timeframe to leave Quebec or establish yourself elsewhere. You did in fact settle elsewhere. You 'fulfilled what you said you would.'

In the big picture, and I suspect in the letter of the law, you fulfilled your obligation. That should be and quite possibly is the entire story as far as immigration and citizenship officials are concerned. (If this were a contract between parties, it would be the end of the story).

Proviso: what I don't know is whether immigration law (not just rules and regs and guidelines, but the law itself and the implementing rules and regs and relevant administrative law) provides for more strict terms including remedies (remedies here may mean 'punishment' from your perspective, ie. what happens if you do not fulfil your obligations).

So please do speak to a lawyer or other professional competent to answer your questions.

But my guess - only a guess - is that a lawyer will look at your documentation and double-check the immigration and case law and tell you that you have nothing to worry about at all, that the reality is that these 'engagement letters' have no force whatsoever except in some very rare cases where the person never left Quebec at all, and possibly not even then. (I'd take a bet for a beer that strictly zero cases have ever resulted in anyone losing their PR status).

[Side note I'd be happy to be corrected on: as I recall Quebec government or current ruling party 'committed' in election campaigns to reduce immigration below some level. It made these commitments without fully working through how these would be implemented in reality (and some would say without regard to reality at all). But immigration is mostly a federal government thing, with some key overlaps with provincial government powers and responsibilities, and both levels of government kind-of sort-of worked things out - in modern terms, it's a hack, in governemnt terms, various 'memoranda of understanding' and whatnot. Some of these limitations don't really work - to wit, applicants to immigrate to Quebec go through a different procedure, but if applicants want to get around it, those stricter procedures are not at all compatible - legally - with the right to move and work freely within Canada that citizens and PRs enjoy as well as practical public administration. So some of this stuff is basically unenforceable esp after the fact of becoming a PR, even if there are key pressure points - mostly at the time of application and prior to landing - where they can influence things (and have some 'duty' to do so I suppose.]

Another relevant note: we all complain government is stupid and bureaucratic, but actually - there are a lot of smart and sensible people in government who absolutely do not want to devote government resources - read, lots of money on lawyers - to pursue cases against taxpayer-residents that have little chance of proceeding; they'd rather get spend the money on frauds and criminals. (And keep in mind here - who would be the plaintiff? The government of Quebec no longer cares - you left. The government of Ontario? You're working and paying taxes there. The government of Canada? They don't want to draw attention to the fact their 'arrangements' with Quebec are toothless, they know it's a hack - actually so does the govt of Quebec). Now this logic does NOT always work and it's absolutely not a defence if it gets into a dispute - they will defend bad decisions if it's important for precedent - but frankly, they have better things to do.

Anyway: speak to a lawyer, and worry less.

Please let us know what feedback you get if you do speak to a lawyer and how this goes.

 

[canuck78]

Again, I am not a lawyer and I am not giving advice. But I've worked with many lawyers over the years having to deal with some thorny areas (NOT immigration related).

But I bolded some areas above.

1) I truly admire your sense of conscience and duty about fulfilling the terms of what you engaged yourself to do. I am not in the least being sarcastic, it is admirable.

2) BUT: assuming you have told the full story above, and the text faithfully represents the original: you did not commit to a specific timeframe to leave Quebec or establish yourself elsewhere. You did in fact settle elsewhere. You 'fulfilled what you said you would.'

In the big picture, and I suspect in the letter of the law, you fulfilled your obligation. That should be and quite possibly is the entire story as far as immigration and citizenship officials are concerned. (If this were a contract between parties, it would be the end of the story).

Proviso: what I don't know is whether immigration law (not just rules and regs and guidelines, but the law itself and the implementing rules and regs and relevant administrative law) provides for more strict terms including remedies (remedies here may mean 'punishment' from your perspective, ie. what happens if you do not fulfil your obligations).

So please do speak to a lawyer or other professional competent to answer your questions.

But my guess - only a guess - is that a lawyer will look at your documentation and double-check the immigration and case law and tell you that you have nothing to worry about at all, that the reality is that these 'engagement letters' have no force whatsoever except in some very rare cases where the person never left Quebec at all, and possibly not even then. (I'd take a bet for a beer that strictly zero cases have ever resulted in anyone losing their PR status).

[Side note I'd be happy to be corrected on: as I recall Quebec government or current ruling party 'committed' in election campaigns to reduce immigration below some level. It made these commitments without fully working through how these would be implemented in reality (and some would say without regard to reality at all). But immigration is mostly a federal government thing, with some key overlaps with provincial government powers and responsibilities, and both levels of government kind-of sort-of worked things out - in modern terms, it's a hack, in governemnt terms, various 'memoranda of understanding' and whatnot. Some of these limitations don't really work - to wit, applicants to immigrate to Quebec go through a different procedure, but if applicants want to get around it, those stricter procedures are not at all compatible - legally - with the right to move and work freely within Canada that citizens and PRs enjoy as well as practical public administration. So some of this stuff is basically unenforceable esp after the fact of becoming a PR, even if there are key pressure points - mostly at the time of application and prior to landing - where they can influence things (and have some 'duty' to do so I suppose.]

Another relevant note: we all complain government is stupid and bureaucratic, but actually - there are a lot of smart and sensible people in government who absolutely do not want to devote government resources - read, lots of money on lawyers - to pursue cases against taxpayer-residents that have little chance of proceeding; they'd rather get spend the money on frauds and criminals. (And keep in mind here - who would be the plaintiff? The government of Quebec no longer cares - you left. The government of Ontario? You're working and paying taxes there. The government of Canada? They don't want to draw attention to the fact their 'arrangements' with Quebec are toothless, they know it's a hack - actually so does the govt of Quebec). Now this logic does NOT always work and it's absolutely not a defence if it gets into a dispute - they will defend bad decisions if it's important for precedent - but frankly, they have better things to do.

Anyway: speak to a lawyer, and worry less.

Please let us know what feedback you get if you do speak to a lawyer and how this goes.

Agree that you have to consult a lawyer and it is very hard to predict whether this will create an issue and whether someone will actually pursue it. This particular issue is a different than PNP applicants moving after a month in the nominating province. You may want to read up on the program but it is very clear that you must leave Quebec and people are often asked to provide more proof of their plans to leave Quebec before being approved for PR.

 

[armoured]

Agree that you have to consult a lawyer and it is very hard to predict whether this will create an issue and whether someone will actually pursue it. This particular issue is a different than PNP applicants moving after a month in the nominating province. You may want to read up on the program but it is very clear that you must leave Quebec and people are often asked to provide more proof of their plans to leave Quebec before being approved for PR.

I agree with all of your points here. The only distinction I'd make is this - although the proofs and clarity re obligations to leave Quebec may be stricter prior to being approved for PR (as you quite rightly stated), that doesn't necessarily mean that the post-landing consequences or framework is fully aligned. It could be exactly the same (or stricter, or even looser).

Again speculating (or guessing) - given legislative and administrative limitations, it's possible that a stricter framework for approval is the primary difference with no different post-landing treatment.

I.e. Quebec can agree fairly easily with the federal government to put an extra approval layer on top - or simply limit the number of approvals by creating higher hurdles/more paperwork upfront - but it is not the same thing nor so easy to translate those requirements into enforceable post-landing obligations (some of which will be subject to judicial review, charter compliance and the like).

Repeat, I'm NOT giving advice - at best an informed guess. Proper legal advice needed.

(Look forward ot hearing what the actual state of affairs is)