canadian citizen entering canada illegally. help me please

[yankees20]

hi,

I am a triple Canadian, American, and French citizen living in NY. I have been writing a paper about covering the current Canadian refugee crisis that began after President Trump assumed office.

As part of my paper, I want to have a narrative experience of what the journey is like, and a Haitian family in my community who is planning on going to Canada has said I can tag along with them on their journey.

My question is as a citizen of Canada can i get into trouble for crossing illegally? I will carry both my American and Canadian passport, Driver's license, and passport card. (US)

I know in the U.S. and France there is no such thing as crossing illegally for me as I am a citizen so as long as I have my documents it is ok to enter however I want, but I cannot find clear information on Canada, so I want to know if as a Canadian carrying documents proving I am Canadian if I can be arrested or detained by the police for crossing illegally.

 

[Bs65]

I do not have any specific knowledge here but maybe ask CBSA directly anonymously as opposed to relying on a public forum.

Then at least if you get arrested for example assisting Haitian migrants to cross the border illegally worst case mistakenly seen as a people trafficker you cannot blame the forum for bad advice.

I suspect CBSA would just say you cross at your own risk and they will not predict the outcome if challenged.

Guess also anyway depends where in the country you cross whether an attended crossing or just some undefined / unattended border point given it is not you seeking to formally seek asylum so you will not be looking for some authority whereas those you accompany probably will be.

 

[yankees20]

I never thought about the trafficking part. Maybe we need to document some sort of proof that I am simply shadowing them to document their experience and nothing more.

Do you know if a Canadian can be arrested for illegal entry. I absolutely need to sort of the trafficking aspect but my main concern is an arrest for illegal entry.

The said they will cross near the Lacolle inspection station following the same route people they know took.

I googled on the place they said and it seems that lots of migrants are using it, I even read it has become so famous that police are stationed there permanently.

 

[Buletruck]

There also a risk of being charged with aiding and abetting. I’d contact a lawyer before you decide to make the trip and risk any criminal charges that could affect both your Canadian or US citizenship. As a canadian, you are still required to apply to enter Canada (enter at a point of entry) and submit to an inspection.
You may want to point out to your Haitian friends that the approval rate for Haitians claiming asylum in Canada is down to 8% for those processed so far. That’s a 92% rejection rate. And I believe if they are rejected they are returns to Haiti, not the US.

 

[yankees20]

Seems like this is way to complicated. I guess I'll just shadow them to the border and request permission from the police to cross. If they allow me great if not I'll stay in the U.S. and meet up with them in Montreal later. Don't want to risk charges by crossing illegally.

Why is Canada so complicated? The US is amazing in this aspect, as a citizen I cannot be charged with illegal entry. France is even better, we don't have borders.

It seems stupid to me that as a Canadian I need "permission" to enter Canada. It's my country after all.

 

[vensak]

Canada is not complicated. Canada is one of your homeland but it is in no way a country of a milk and honey or a country that has obligation to save the whole world. In a first place its obligation are to their citizens, then to permanent residents, then temporary residents and visitors.

In a way what you will be writing can be easily taken by others who wants to cross borders illegally. Not to mention that you will document your own crime that is punishable both in Canada and in USA.

Check with Canadian border police if you can be with them and document a case when they will arrest somebody that will cross illegally.

And do not be mistaken, just because France is now in the middle of Schengen area it does not mean that there are not points where you do not have to show your ID. (whenever arriving from the international flight, when arriving by sea from international waters or when accessing France territories outside Europe). For example trying to avoid passport control on airport can cost you good amount of trouble.

 

[yankees20]

Canada is not complicated. Canada is one of your homeland but it is in no way a country of a milk and honey or a country that has obligation to save the whole world. In a first place its obligation are to their citizens, then to permanent residents, then temporary residents and visitors.

In a way what you will be writing can be easily taken by others who wants to cross borders illegally. Not to mention that you will document your own crime that is punishable both in Canada and in USA.

Check with Canadian border police if you can be with them and document a case when they will arrest somebody that will cross illegally.

And do not be mistaken, just because France is now in the middle of Schengen area it does not mean that there are not points where you do not have to show your ID. (whenever arriving from the international flight, when arriving by sea from international waters or when accessing France territories outside Europe). For example trying to avoid passport control on airport can cost you good amount of trouble.

In France when I go by plane I do need to show my ID but there is a special counter for EU citizens and they only do a photo check. By law for EU citizens they need to keep the inspection brief. In many EU countries I can also use the automatic gates without ever meeting an officer.

When I go to Canada, In Montreal I can see the European attitude of treating citizens with dignity. The check my photo and that's it. Finished in 30 seconds. In Toronto and Vancouver on the other hand there are always some questions like where are you coming from, what are you bringing etc. In America it's more like Europe. Even for tourists JFK now have automated immigration controls called Global Entry or something. Automated border control in Canada is not truly automated, and I think their policies are truly silly. The whole world knows how to cross into Canada illegally, it's not some big secret and there is no military on the border trying to stop you. My father is from a small town in Quebec by the American border and he tells me when he was a child he could always move between both countries without a problem and police would never stop him or ask him questions.

Now it is so different and to enter my own country I need to go ask for permission. As a Canadian it should be my right to enter my country whenever and wherever I want. And the policy is also stupid because what if I cross in some remote area where there is no police and just wait at the border until a police shows up. They couldn't arrest me because they would not have seen me cross the border. Worst case they could check me ID as I am in a border zone. Now it is only because I am shadowing this family and they will cross the border where there is police that I am facing this problem.

The one good thing is that the Canadian side is Quebec, so what I will do is I will ask the officer permission to cross, and most likely I think he will allow me after seeing my passport. Hopefully the officer is from Quebec and not some other part of Canada.

Also in America it is not a crime. If I have my ID they cannot arrest me. America has some common sense, they realize that a citizen by basic logic cannot enter "illegally."

 

[canuck_in_uk]

Seems like this is way to complicated. I guess I'll just shadow them to the border and request permission from the police to cross. If they allow me great if not I'll stay in the U.S. and meet up with them in Montreal later. Don't want to risk charges by crossing illegally.

Why is Canada so complicated? The US is amazing in this aspect, as a citizen I cannot be charged with illegal entry. France is even better, we don't have borders.

It seems stupid to me that as a Canadian I need "permission" to enter Canada. It's my country after all.

The goverment is not going to charge you for an illegal entry. However, they can and should detain you to make sure you are not smuggling, drug running, evading duties or doing any of the other illegal activities people are generally trying to do when doing an illegal crossing. If you were to cross illegally into the US and were stopped by authorities, do you think you could just show your US passport and be waved on through with a smile? They would detain you, search you, investigate you etc.

Also, you may want to inform this Haitian family that Canada is not the promiseland and they have a good chance of being deported.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

In France when I go by plane I do need to show my ID but there is a special counter for EU citizens and they only do a photo check. By law for EU citizens they need to keep the inspection brief. In many EU countries I can also use the automatic gates without ever meeting an officer.

When I go to Canada, In Montreal I can see the European attitude of treating citizens with dignity. The check my photo and that's it. Finished in 30 seconds. In Toronto and Vancouver on the other hand there are always some questions like where are you coming from, what are you bringing etc. In America it's more like Europe. Even for tourists JFK now have automated immigration controls called Global Entry or something. Automated border control in Canada is not truly automated, and I think their policies are truly silly. The whole world knows how to cross into Canada illegally, it's not some big secret and there is no military on the border trying to stop you. My father is from a small town in Quebec by the American border and he tells me when he was a child he could always move between both countries without a problem and police would never stop him or ask him questions.

Now it is so different and to enter my own country I need to go ask for permission. As a Canadian it should be my right to enter my country whenever and wherever I want. And the policy is also stupid because what if I cross in some remote area where there is no police and just wait at the border until a police shows up. They couldn't arrest me because they would not have seen me cross the border. Worst case they could check me ID as I am in a border zone. Now it is only because I am shadowing this family and they will cross the border where there is police that I am facing this problem.

The one good thing is that the Canadian side is Quebec, so what I will do is I will ask the officer permission to cross, and most likely I think he will allow me after seeing my passport. Hopefully the officer is from Quebec and not some other part of Canada.

Also in America it is not a crime. If I have my ID they cannot arrest me. America has some common sense, they realize that a citizen by basic logic cannot enter "illegally."

Oh yeah, the people of Quebec are so well known for their kind and positive attitudes...

 

[vensak]

In France when I go by plane I do need to show my ID but there is a special counter for EU citizens and they only do a photo check. By law for EU citizens they need to keep the inspection brief. In many EU countries I can also use the automatic gates without ever meeting an officer.

When I go to Canada, In Montreal I can see the European attitude of treating citizens with dignity. The check my photo and that's it. Finished in 30 seconds. In Toronto and Vancouver on the other hand there are always some questions like where are you coming from, what are you bringing etc. In America it's more like Europe. Even for tourists JFK now have automated immigration controls called Global Entry or something. Automated border control in Canada is not truly automated, and I think their policies are truly silly. The whole world knows how to cross into Canada illegally, it's not some big secret and there is no military on the border trying to stop you. My father is from a small town in Quebec by the American border and he tells me when he was a child he could always move between both countries without a problem and police would never stop him or ask him questions.

Now it is so different and to enter my own country I need to go ask for permission. As a Canadian it should be my right to enter my country whenever and wherever I want. And the policy is also stupid because what if I cross in some remote area where there is no police and just wait at the border until a police shows up. They couldn't arrest me because they would not have seen me cross the border. Worst case they could check me ID as I am in a border zone. Now it is only because I am shadowing this family and they will cross the border where there is police that I am facing this problem.

The one good thing is that the Canadian side is Quebec, so what I will do is I will ask the officer permission to cross, and most likely I think he will allow me after seeing my passport. Hopefully the officer is from Quebec and not some other part of Canada.

Also in America it is not a crime. If I have my ID they cannot arrest me. America has some common sense, they realize that a citizen by basic logic cannot enter "illegally."

Good,
But in all cases you mentioned you have to go through the designated area and they do check your ID (be it a passport or a national ID). You just cannot hop off the shuttle bus and then start walking to the fields behind the airport and exit it that way. Trust me, this is the same for EU when you are arriving from 3rd country (non Schengen area). And yes you can get easily questions about what are you importing and what is in your luggage.

Lot of things were possible in the past, but are not possible anymore. Having a nostalgia will not change the things. If you want a change vote for the politician who will be able to negotiate a treaty that is similar to the Schengen treaty in Europe. But while it is not there follow the law.

Your crime is not that much crossing the borders on not designated spot (because you are Canadian citizen the offence will not be that big).
It is helping and assisting somebody else to commit crime. That family you want to walk with does not have any legal status in Canada and they do not have proper documents to cross.
So technically you are supposed to contact police and inform about intention of them to commit such crime. (even a lawyer has this duty, should he get information about a crime in preparation from their client).

So failing to do so and then documenting it (on camera or writing about it) is the same thing as giving out the evidence about assisting somebody to commit the crime.

Human trafficking is no light offence.

That is maybe in documentaries that you see, they do follow the general trail up to the border, they do some interviews of people thinking about it. and then they jump on the other side shadowing police (and not criminal offenders).

 

[yankees20]

Oh yeah, the people of Quebec are so well known for their kind and positive attitudes...

The people of Quebec, both the anglophones and the francophones, are the nicest in Canada without a doubt. Our culture and attitude has its roots in France, whereas you culture has its roots in England. Especially with refugees, Quebec is the most welcoming. I have lived in Montreal for a long time and you will never find a city like it, especially if you are an immigrant.

 

[Buletruck]

Also in America it is not a crime. If I have my ID they cannot arrest me. America has some common sense, they realize that a citizen by basic logic cannot enter "illegally."

No one here has said you would be charge with a crime for entering Canada someplace other than a point of entry. Some of the other things you are planning on doing may be considered a crime. And, despite what you think, even US citizens have to present themselves at a point of entry and apply for entry (that's why they have all those little declaration forms to fill out). They won't deny you entry, but you still have to present yourself to a border agent at some point. You can't just walk across the border at any old point you want to and not tell them you are in country.....

 

[yankees20]

No one here has said you would be charge with a crime for entering Canada someplace other than a point of entry. Some of the other things you are planning on doing may be considered a crime. And, despite what you think, even US citizens have to present themselves at a point of entry and apply for entry (that's why they have all those little declaration forms to fill out). They won't deny you entry, but you still have to present yourself to a border agent at some point. You can't just walk across the border at any old point you want to and not tell them you are in country.....

Yes, I understand, and I am by no means angry at anyone here on this forum. I am just releasing my frustration with Canada in general. If I ever cross into America (and I actually checked this out) as long as I have my ID I cannot be arrested. The maximum the police can do is:

1: Verify my citizenship.

2: Ensure that I don't have illegal things with me.

They cannot arrest or detain me.

Also in some places like when boating we are supposed to call the police but I don't think anyone does it. I have not had any problems with this yet.

Also I don't understand that why I am supposed to call the police on the family. I mean to protect myself I will be happy to call them and say that the date and time and place they are crossing but that wouldn't help because the family will still cross and even if they don't find the police they will call and request to be arrested. Seems like a waste of time to me as no one is trying to enter without detection.

 

[vensak]

Yes, I understand, and I am by no means angry at anyone here on this forum. I am just releasing my frustration with Canada in general. If I ever cross into America (and I actually checked this out) as long as I have my ID I cannot be arrested. The maximum the police can do is:

1: Verify my citizenship.

2: Ensure that I don't have illegal things with me.

They cannot arrest or detain me.

Also in some places like when boating we are supposed to call the police but I don't think anyone does it. I have not had any problems with this yet.

Also I don't understand that why I am supposed to call the police on the family. I mean to protect myself I will be happy to call them and say that the date and time and place they are crossing but that wouldn't help because the family will still cross and even if they don't find the police they will call and request to be arrested. Seems like a waste of time to me as no one is trying to enter without detection.

And again, you are wrong. You can be arrested if the police officer has a suspicion that you are committing or you have committed a crime. Your only right as a citizen is that you cannot be deported from your own country.

There is a big difference when somebody states in the interview:

"I want to cross to Canada / USA / France.... I want to live there and get there no matter what even if that means to cross illegally"

and
" on 24.12.2017 in the afternoon hours I want to cross between points A and B."

In the first case the though it too general to be considered of a planning of a specific crime. In the second case somebody is planning a criminal offence (the date time and place was stated".
So again you do not see any such statements in the interviews in documentaries about illegal border crossing.

If they want to cross and claim for asylum they must be detected (they have to call the police to detain them, so that they can file their refugee claim). But by calling in advance (and in this case calling the police in USA), they could be detained before the crime is committed.

You are also a USA citizen, so you do not feel offended, that your country is not good enough for them to claim asylum there (I am assuming, that they lived in USA for some time and now they want to Canada)?

 

[Buletruck]

They cannot arrest or detain me.

Unless you were aiding and abetting a criminal activity (illegal entry of a foreign national that you knew was entering illegally) or trafficking illegal immigrants (walking across an international border with people seeking to enter the country illegally).........