Campaign to Amend Section 5 of the Citizenship Act

[Beakster]

Hi,

I am currently looking for suggestions, criticisms and support for a campaign I'm running to have the Citizenship Act amended to provided a faster and fairer route to citizenship for those of use who have lived in Canada for several years before our PR was grated or while it was being processed.

The current rules state that you must have been in Canada for 3 years before you can apply for Citizenship, but 2 years of those must have been as a permanent resident! This means that some people who had their PR processed in a matter of months are much further along on their road to citizenship than those who had to wait several years. Through no fault of our own many of us are being asked to wait an extra 2 years before we can apply for citizenship despite the fact we have been living in Canada, becoming Canadianized and contributing to the economy and to the government with our taxes.

I am now seeking to rectify this with an amendment to the Citizenship Act that would recognise the time we have spent in Canada waiting for our PR applications to be processed as being the same as time spent after PR is granted. I hope that the result of this will be that for those of us who have been in Canada for over 3 years before being granted PR status, we will be eligible to apply for Citizenship as soon as our PR is granted.

If you would like to find out more about the campaign please look at the website http://citizenshipact.ca, join the facebook group linked on there and spread the word to other immigrants in the same situation.

If you have any questions or criticisms please post them here for discussion

Thanks

 

[torontonian999]

There are people who stay here for a long time just so they can gain PR at the end. And they leave as soon as they get their PR and stay in Canada only long enough to maintain their PR status. So, it is mportant to demonstrate that you continue living in Canada even after you get your PR regardless of how long you lived in Canada prior to getting your PR. I think requirement of two years for those who have lived here before is fair. I say this as someone who became a PR after living in Canada for 12 years on study and work permits and waited for 2 years before applying for my citizenship. I don't expect citizenship rules to get any less strict. They will become only more stringent especially when there is so much fraud.

 

[Beakster]

Hi torontonian999,

Thanks for the reply. I'm a little confused by the scenario you are describing. For people to stay in Canada only long enough to maintain PR status that means 3 out of 5 years. A period of 3 years as a PR is enough to apply for Citizenship so I don't really see how they would be affect. It really seems to be the luck of the draw though, some people get PR after 4 months in Canada (or even before they arrive), after 3 years they are eligible to apply for Citizenship, so why shouldn't someone who's been living in Canada for 3 years, the whole time waiting on the government processing their application, be able to do the same?

I agree with you that fraud is a concern, but I don't see how the proposed amendments could affect this. We are talking about people who are resident in Canada, regardless of PR status they still have to prove this.

 

[just_do_it]

Hi torontonian999,

Thanks for the reply. I'm a little confused by the scenario you are describing. For people to stay in Canada only long enough to maintain PR status that means 3 out of 5 years. A period of 3 years as a PR is enough to apply for Citizenship so I don't really see how they would be affect. It really seems to be the luck of the draw though, some people get PR after 4 months in Canada (or even before they arrive), after 3 years they are eligible to apply for Citizenship, so why shouldn't someone who's been living in Canada for 3 years, the whole time waiting on the government processing their application, be able to do the same?

I agree with you that fraud is a concern, but I don't see how the proposed amendments could affect this. We are talking about people who are resident in Canada, regardless of PR status they still have to prove this.

An example:

Person A comes to canada and applies for PR as a refugee.
The refugee case streches out for 3 years before person A is granted PR.
As per your suggested changes, person A would be eligible to apply for citizenship right away if their times under processing counts the same as time as a PR.

now if person A only came here for the purpose of gaining PR, gets their PR, and also their citizenship and now takes off back to where they came from with a canadian passport, we just made it all too easy for him/her.

Under current rules, person A would have to live in Canada for 2 more years before being eligible to apply for citizenship. also, person A would have to live in Canada for 3 years out of 5 to even maintain their PR status. So this, potentially, weeds out citizens/ PR's of convenience to some extent.

Now if person A genuinly wanted to settle in Canada, he/she should have no problem waiting 2 years while they work, live, pay taxes etc before they can get citizenship.

atleast people get credit for upto a year for time spent in Canada (legally) before PR. so in a way, those people are a year ahead (in terms of qualifying for citizenship) of the one's coming here as PR's.

 

[canuckoz]

there were same arguments when the Australian Citizenship Act was amended. previously, non-PR time spent was not counted at all. currently, time spent as non-PR is counted in full, as long as 1 year is also spent as PR. I see no significant problems being reported of people "taking advantage" of the system, in fact a huge majority still choose to stay in the country despite the whingeing of the Poms ;D.

perhaps you could approach your MP, and perhaps you can search through the parliamentary discussions in the Australian case. as you know Canada and Australia share common legal heritage (both Commonwealth countries with a Westminster style) and you may gain some understanding of how this was successfully passed down under.

 

[scylla]

The following weakens your petition:

"Considering the six years immediately preceding the date of his or her application, rather than just four."

IMHO there is zero chance any of Canada's political parties will support the amendment with this included as this significantly lessens the committment people have to demonstrate towards Canada to qualify for citizenship (3 out of 6 years vs. 3 out of 4). This creates a short cut. Not going to happen...

 

[just_do_it]

there were same arguments when the Australian Citizenship Act was amended. previously, non-PR time spent was not counted at all. currently, time spent as non-PR is counted in full, as long as 1 year is also spent as PR. I see no significant problems being reported of people "taking advantage" of the system, in fact a huge majority still choose to stay in the country despite the whingeing of the Poms ;D.

perhaps you could approach your MP, and perhaps you can search through the parliamentary discussions in the Australian case. as you know Canada and Australia share common legal heritage (both Commonwealth countries with a Westminster style) and you may gain some understanding of how this was successfully passed down under.

True, but i don't think we can compare Canadian vs Oz immigration at the same level. Both are very different.
for e.g. take the refugee system, i bet Canada's immigration system is very easy to play through refugee claims compared to australia's. also, i believe immigrating to Australia is much harder through various programs (compared to Canada). so an immigrant of convenience will usually choose the path of least resistance.

another example is the family stream. In canada, people can sponsor their parents who can stay here as visitors while their application is in process. Quite often, they go back to their countries as soon as they get PR (preferably Citizenship). and canada has had to bail them out in the past from conflict zones (im not going to cite an example here but you should know what im talking about).

 

[canuckoz]

True, but i don't think we can compare Canadian vs Oz immigration at the same level. Both are very different.
for e.g. take the refugee system, i bet Canada's immigration system is very easy to play through refugee claims compared to australia's. also, i believe immigrating to Australia is much harder through various programs (compared to Canada). so an immigrant of convenience will usually choose the path of least resistance.

another example is the family stream. In canada, people can sponsor their parents who can stay here as visitors while their application is in process. Quite often, they go back to their countries as soon as they get PR (preferably Citizenship). and canada has had to bail them out in the past from conflict zones (im not going to cite an example here but you should know what im talking about).

yeah, in Australia, refugee claimants are flown away to the offshore Pacific Islands while their asylum claims are assessed. and parents have to wait 10+ years to get PR or have to pay $50,000 "social contribution" to become PR in about 2 years. (also note in Australia there is no Bill or Charter of Rights and the Parliament can do as they please with a few exceptions -- quite ironic for a Western Democracy.)

 

[just_do_it]

yeah, in Australia, refugee claimants are flown away to the offshore Pacific Islands while their asylum claims are assessed. and parents have to wait 10+ years to get PR or have to pay $50,000 "social contribution" to become PR in about 2 years. (also note in Australia there is no Bill or Charter of Rights and the Parliament can do as they please with a few exceptions -- quite ironic for a Western Democracy.)

Beautiful country though. Would move there in a heartbeat if i had the chance to.
My brother lives in Melbourne, lucky ba$tard.

 

[canuckoz]

and one of the reasons why citizenship processing takes only 2 months is that every entry and exit in and out of the country is recorded in the immigration systems. it's so easy to keep track of everyone, there no residency questionnaires or citizenship judges!

 

[scylla]

and one of the reasons why citizenship processing takes only 2 months is that every entry and exit in and out of the country is recorded in the immigration systems. it's so easy to keep track of everyone, there no residency questionnaires or citizenship judges!

Agreed. Also no land borders. Makes it far earlier to track movement.

 

[Beakster]

An example:

Person A comes to canada and applies for PR as a refugee.
The refugee case streches out for 3 years before person A is granted PR.
As per your suggested changes, person A would be eligible to apply for citizenship right away if their times under processing counts the same as time as a PR.

now if person A only came here for the purpose of gaining PR, gets their PR, and also their citizenship and now takes off back to where they came from with a canadian passport, we just made it all too easy for him/her.

Under current rules, person A would have to live in Canada for 2 more years before being eligible to apply for citizenship. also, person A would have to live in Canada for 3 years out of 5 to even maintain their PR status. So this, potentially, weeds out citizens/ PR's of convenience to some extent.

Now if person A genuinly wanted to settle in Canada, he/she should have no problem waiting 2 years while they work, live, pay taxes etc before they can get citizenship.

atleast people get credit for upto a year for time spent in Canada (legally) before PR. so in a way, those people are a year ahead (in terms of qualifying for citizenship) of the one's coming here as PR's.

You are forgetting the reality of the citizenship application procedure here. Currently average processing time is 22 months. If you haven't been employed during this time and earning a fair wage then it's very likely you will receive a Residence Questionnaire which will take your Citizenship application processing time up to around 4 years. Now you also need to consider the rule that at the time citizenship is granted, Permanent Resident status must not be in doubt. I think this in itself means that people cannot take advantage of the system in the way you describe.

To put this into your example, Person A cannot simply "get their PR, and also their citizenship and now takes off back to where they came from with a canadian passport", because they have the long process of actually getting Citizenship to deal with. The only thing the change I am proposing would do is let the apply earlier.

 

[Beakster]

The following weakens your petition:

"Considering the six years immediately preceding the date of his or her application, rather than just four."

IMHO there is zero chance any of Canada's political parties will support the amendment with this included as this significantly lessens the committment people have to demonstrate towards Canada to qualify for citizenship (3 out of 6 years vs. 3 out of 4). This creates a short cut. Not going to happen...

The 3 options listed are all alternatives of one another. This option is my least favourite, but it is one that has already been discussed in the past and I have heard rumours they are planning to increase it to 5 years. I don't really see how it creates a short cut though, you still need 3 years of physical presence and PR status before you can submit your citizenship application and begin the long waiting period for them to process that.

 

[GinnyPi]

The following weakens your petition:

"Considering the six years immediately preceding the date of his or her application, rather than just four."

IMHO there is zero chance any of Canada's political parties will support the amendment with this included as this significantly lessens the committment people have to demonstrate towards Canada to qualify for citizenship (3 out of 6 years vs. 3 out of 4). This creates a short cut. Not going to happen...

Ummm confused by your point. If they had been in Canada 6 years before being eligible/becoming a PR, would this not be the definition of commitment??

 

[GinnyPi]

1.Remove the rule that dictates that days before Permanent Residency is granted are only worth one-half day, so as to recognise all time spent physically (and legally) in Canada before the Citizenship Application as one full day of residence per day. This is my preferred option and I believe the most fair.

This is personally what I think makes sense. I mean if they were here legally, they were paying bills and buying goods and services, paying taxes as a temporary worker, or paying exhorbitant tuition fees as an international student. If we are really going for procedural fairness, this is what's fair. The current rule is a classic case of the Orwellian "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others".

Imagine person A who spends four years in University, then at minimum spends one year working before being eligible to apply for Permanent Residency under the Canadian Experience Class, currently taking an average of 13 months to be processed. That person spends at least 6 years in the country before potentially becoming a PR. And this is if they got a qualifying job the day they got out of school. They now have to wait another two years before being eligble for apply for Citizenship, which currently takes around two years. 10 years before they get their passport and can vote. Outrageous? I think yes.

Person B marries a Canadian and becomes a permanent resident in 6 months, and can vote five years later, all things being equal.

Who has shown more "commitment"?? There are other ways you can paint this. You can make them both students, one of them does a one year course, one of them is lucky enough to get a job right away while the other waits a couple of years landing that perfect opportunity, one of them was here since the 9th grade, etc etc....bottom line, you're not half a person while you're a temporary resident, so your time should not count as half the time.