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bsrk68

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This is a burning topic in Canadian Immigration matters. I would invite all Immigrants (Prospective and Landed) to share their experiences in this thread for the benefit of the rest of us.

With Canada’s doctor shortage still dire, medical authorities are under constant pressure to let more foreign-trained medical graduates work here as physicians. But two new studies point to a significant roadblock: close to half of those who make it past rigorous screening and into family-medicine post-graduate training fail to pass their certification exams. Researchers say the reasons may lie with the quality — or teaching approach — of overseas medical schools, which sometimes instill a more traditional, doctor-knows-best philosophy.

And the performance of those offshore schools is also an issue for the growing number of Canadian-born students who are getting their medical degrees overseas, after failing to be admitted to schools here, researchers say.

Researchers and officials stress that the findings do not suggest Canada should turn its back on foreign-trained MDs who settle here — especially since they save taxpayers the substantial cost of medical school education — but that more needs to be done to help them become full-fledged Canadian physicians.

Although the two studies, just published in the journal Canadian Family Physician, are the first to expose the problem widely, the phenomenon has been well-known within the medical community, doctors say.

“If you take somebody new to the country and new to the system and throw them into post-graduate training, it’s kind of like throwing them into the deep end of the pool,” said Dr. Paul Rainsberry, education director with the College of Family Physicians of Canada. Some suggested that Canada also consider emulating a U.S. decision announced last week: Starting in 2023, the country will accept international graduates only from schools that have been accredited according to globally accepted standards.

In Canada, only graduates of medical schools in this country and the United States are considered automatically qualified for a residency — the taxpayer-funded, two years of on-the-job training required to become a family doctor and five years to become a specialist.

Others must pass a screening process that typically includes exams and language testing, designed to ensure they have at least the same level of medical knowledge as Canadian graduates.

Sadly the average pass rate for international graduates was 56%, versus 93.5% for the Canadians.

It is estimated that 1,500 Canadians are now studying at overseas medical schools, and are considered IMGs when they come back. They often fare poorly in residency exams, too, said Dr. Rod Andrew, who headed the study. “That’s because many of them are going to medical schools that are just not up to par.”

The international residents’ problems lie in the oral, clinical part of the tests, where examiners pose as patients, and see how the would-be doctors handle the hypothetical cases presented them. It seems many of their medical schools did not teach them the modern North American medical approach, where doctors are encouraged to get patients to “buy in” to their diagnosis and treatment.

“Many international medical graduates … are trained to say, ‘I’m the doctor, this is what you do,’ ” Sounds familiar...isn't it?

Please put in your ideas. Who knows, this could turn out to be the greatest lobby thread we can forward to the Minister some day.
 
Dear future immigrants! I want to bring to your notice the following facts:
aipso.webs.com/apps/forums/topics/show/4137554-doctors-educated-outside-u-s-outperform-home-grown-physicians?page=last
aipso.webs.com/apps/blog/entries/show/5399548-inquiry-may-confirm-allegations-by-foreign-trained-doctors
 
I really think these people are only using this as an excuse, I DO NOT believe for a minute that Canadian-trained doctors are better than Internationally-trained ones. I mean, how come these same IMDs' patients in the US have a lower mortality rate than even the US-trained doctors, as the article from the link which Deva posted shows?! Also, I have a friend who had a baby via Caesarian Section in Montreal about 5 years ago and ended up with a severe bone infection which left her paralyzed for months! Moreover I don't understand how most Canadian university students graduate with an average of 75-90+% Grade Point Average. With so many of them passing out with such high marks, they either have the most intelligent set of students in the world (which I seriously doubt!) or something is very wrong with their educational system!
 
Canada has to change its perspective at foreign trained doctors. Why they need such a lengthy exams and long procedure for registration? How come the foreign trained doctors can pass such exams when thay have left their studies 10-20 years ago? It is ok for fresh gradiuates.

Many foreign trained doctors can practice easily in USA, UK and many other countries of the world, then why not in Canada?

I tell you one example, in Trinidad and Tobago (where I work now) there is a shortage of doctors. What health authority did is recruited foreign trained doctors from India, Nigeria, Guyana and some from other countries. The day they arrived in this country, very next day they started their duties, and over the time many local doctors trained under them. I know @ 10 Indian doctors who's experince varies between 2-10 years when the first recruited. This is a english speaking country and most of the doctors english was at low/moderate level when they first arrive here. Neither we heard any complaint from the citizens nor anybody died from the treatment of these so called "foreign trained doctors". I know one sudanese doctor who came here four years ago with his low level english, and now he is a popular doctor among patients.

Ok, I agree the doctors degree from some countries may not be acceptible, then impose exams on those doctors, why everbody?

In my view, foreign trained doctors from some countries are WAY BETTER THAN CANADIAN DOCTORS. For example, the doctors from India, they have to cure for many air born/infectius deseases which exist india, on the other hand such deseases are not exist (due to cold country) in Canada and Canadian doctors deal with only few deseases

One more thing, Foreign trained doctors degree is acceptible for immigration, but once he/she lands in Canada that degree has zero value, why? Moreover, they cannot handle those difficult exams and then drive taxis to stay alive. If Canada want to train them, train them practically under registered canadian practioners for 1-2 years with stipend and then put them on job. During the training, Canadian doctors can also learn from them, just exchange of experiece and ideas. But who cares? what we say is falling on deaf ears. Nothing will change until Canada change its "We are the best" egoeistic mentality.
 
ADUFE said:
I really think these people are only using this as an excuse, I DO NOT believe for a minute that Canadian-trained doctors are better than Internationally-trained ones. I second you I mean, how come these same IMDs' patients in the US have a lower mortality rate than even the US-trained doctors, as the article from the link which Deva posted shows?! Also, I have a friend who had a baby via Caesarian Section in Montreal about 5 years ago and ended up with a severe bone infection which left her paralyzed for months! Moreover I don't understand how most Canadian university students graduate with an average of 75-90+% Grade Point Average. Yes you are right, I also have done my MBA from USA (distance learning) and have secured 97% (GPA-3.97/4), but I know I am not worth it. Many universities in the US and Canada just over-inflate the points.With so many of them passing out with such high marks, they either have the most intelligent set of students in the world (which I seriously doubt!) or something is very wrong with their educational system! I also believe so
 
Dear All.
I have a question. I had a fracture in my left leg and there is a rod in it. Do you guys think this will effect my medicals?
regards
 
ADUFE said:
I really think these people are only using this as an excuse, I DO NOT believe for a minute that Canadian-trained doctors are better than Internationally-trained ones. I mean, how come these same IMDs' patients in the US have a lower mortality rate than even the US-trained doctors, as the article from the link which Deva posted shows?! Also, I have a friend who had a baby via Caesarian Section in Montreal about 5 years ago and ended up with a severe bone infection which left her paralyzed for months! Moreover I don't understand how most Canadian university students graduate with an average of 75-90+% Grade Point Average. With so many of them passing out with such high marks, they either have the most intelligent set of students in the world (which I seriously doubt!) or something is very wrong with their educational system!
One reason the GPA is so high in Canadian Medical Schools is the incredible competition to GET IN to these institutions! There are limited seats available so Administration has the ability to select the cream of the crop. I know this first hand from dear friends whose daughter has applied several times and been turned down. Her marks are good, and her personality and work ethics are outstanding. She would be well suited to medicine, but either her marks are not AS good as the others, her parents aren't involved in the medical field, or she hasn't done voluneer work in third world countries (JUST Canada)....there could be any number of reasons she wasn't accepted. If you look at a picture of a medical school graduating class you will also be struck by the fact that it is full of men and women from all different countries. Marks, performance, competition. I don't think it is a fair assessment that there is something wrong with the system because the GPA of these incredibly hard-working students is high. (Better hope I can dismount from my high horse today without stumbling! LOL)
DEVA: I tried to open the links you provided, but on luck??
lhr_Montreal: I am NOT an authority by any means, but issues affecting medicals would be things that would put the population at risk (communicable diseases) or create a heavy financial burden on the medical system. I doubt a simple fractured leg would qualify, unless perhaps the fracture was the result of an underlyng disease process? You will have to ask your doctor. Good luck.
 
Pippin said:
One reason the GPA is so high in Canadian Medical Schools is the incredible competition to GET IN to these institutions! There are limited seats available so Administration has the ability to select the cream of the crop. I know this first hand from dear friends whose daughter has applied several times and been turned down. Her marks are good, and her personality and work ethics are outstanding. She would be well suited to medicine, but either her marks are not AS good as the others, her parents aren't involved in the medical field, or she hasn't done voluneer work in third world countries (JUST Canada)....there could be any number of reasons she wasn't accepted. If you look at a picture of a medical school graduating class you will also be struck by the fact that it is full of men and women from all different countries. Marks, performance, competition. I don't think it is a fair assessment that there is something wrong with the system because the GPA of these incredibly hard-working students is high. (Better hope I can dismount from my high horse today without stumbling! LOL)
DEVA: I tried to open the links you provided, but on luck??
lhr_Montreal: I am NOT an authority by any means, but issues affecting medicals would be things that would put the population at risk (communicable diseases) or create a heavy financial burden on the medical system. I doubt a simple fractured leg would qualify, unless perhaps the fracture was the result of an underlyng disease process? You will have to ask your doctor. Good luck.
I second
 
Thanks, Kanamen - it WAS a bit of a rant! LOL
The whole issue of Med School is full of challenges. So many Canadian students graduate from high school with the dream of going into medicine. Along come all these incredibly bright, international students, capable of paying the big bucks for their schooling and willing to sacrifice Friday night parties (heck, WEEKEND parties) to study. In fact, their study skills have been honed by years of diligent school work. So it is strange to read about practitioners from foreign countries complaining about the GPAs of Canadian medical classes that are full of foreign students. LOL
 
Pippin said:
Thanks, Kanamen - it WAS a bit of a rant! LOL
The whole issue of Med School is full of challenges. So many Canadian students graduate from high school with the dream of going into medicine. Along come all these incredibly bright, international students, capable of paying the big bucks for their schooling and willing to sacrifice Friday night parties (heck, WEEKEND parties) to study. In fact, their study skills have been honed by years of diligent school work. So it is strange to read about practitioners from foreign countries complaining about the GPAs of Canadian medical classes that are full of foreign students. LOL
I think you need to re-read my post. I was not talking about the GPAs of Medical graduates alone, I was talking about ALL Canadian University graduates in general! Just go and have a look at their requirements for a Master's degree program, then you'll see what I mean! And according to what I read about 80% or more of their graduates graduate with an average GPA of 80% and above. It's also the same story as well with the high school graduates, go figure! ::)
 
Can I ask a question?

Why, when as other people have posted foreign medical professionals are able to practice in other Countries easily, do Doctors still apply to immigrate to Canada?

This puzzles me. Most medical immigrants are well aware of the extra credentials they must get to be able to work in their chosen field in Canada, so why come here?

Surely, unless you are willing to re educate your self in Canada, then it is pointless coming here and expecting to obtain a job you know you are unable to get.

I would really like to hear from Doctors as to why, after all their years of training, they still want to come to Canada and do an extra 2 or more years of expensive training, when they have a good job in their own Country.

Can anyone explain the benefits please.
 
Please read this news.
Montreal doctor suspended, fined after filming naked patients with hidden camera
By The Canadian Press | The Canadian Press – Wed, 16 Feb, 2011 4:35 AM EST

Tue, 15 Feb, 2011 9:55 PM EST
MONTREAL - A Montreal doctor has been suspended and fined for filming female patients with a hidden camera while they were naked.
Quebec's College of Physicians says it has suspended Dr. Barry Rabinovitch for four months and fined him $3,000.
According to the disciplinary report released Tuesday, the investigation found that Rabinovitch filmed 10 to 15 women in various stages of undress in an examining room between January and May 2009.
The 56-year-old is a married father of two children and a lung specialist.
He is also an associate professor with McGill University's medical faculty.
 
ADUFE said:
I think you need to re-read my post. I was not talking about the GPAs of Medical graduates alone, I was talking about ALL Canadian University graduates in general! Just go and have a look at their requirements for a Master's degree program, then you'll see what I mean! And according to what I read about 80% or more of their graduates graduate with an average GPA of 80% and above. It's also the same story as well with the high school graduates, go figure! ::)
Respectfully, Adufe, you will understand what it is like for many Canadian children when you imagine what would happen if the same high standards were in every country's universities. What happens to the students who fail to gain entry into their "own universities"? I think you will find ALL programmes in our universities are packed with the brilliant minds of the world. For one reason, I am sure all educational institutions want to attract the best of the best in the hope their students will "make them proud" with their future accomplishments. Sadly, another important factor is that there are limited seats in schools and if a percentage of those seats are filled by students willing to pay many times the amount a Canadian student is required to pay (because their parents have already paid years of taxes to subsidize education), it helps the institution meets its budget.
Our own children attended high school and it was common to have overseas students in every grade in homestay situations. Some aged 16 and up, had parents who bought them cars and houses to live in then left them alone in Canada. They gave them money for their expenses, but not all these students were capable of looking after themselves. They spent the money on many things they should not have, and ended up sick and hungry. It is a huge issue and the public only sees the tip of the iceberg.
 
nope my husaband has same in his arm .. and we had no issues

lhr_montreal said:
Dear All.
I have a question. I had a fracture in my left leg and there is a rod in it. Do you guys think this will effect my medicals?
regards
 
Dear prospective immigrants,
Please read the following news and try to guess the real picture of Canadian Health Service. Dr. Raj Sherman alone is fighting. But will he be able to overcome? Let us give our support to him. Let us motivate everybody and help to bring real change.
Please read the following two news paper articles:

‘I’ve had enough. I’m fed up:’ Dr. Raj Sherman

By Jodie Sinnema, edmontonjournal.com

EDMONTON — When Dr. Raj Sherman was in India earlier this month to visit family, he had time to reflect and came to an important decision.
Back in Edmonton, his father was in hospital, near death. His emergency room colleagues were scrambling to take care of sick people in waiting rooms. His two children were tired of eating TV dinners while dad was busy with politics.
“With everything in context, I said, ‘You know what, I think I’ve probably done enough,’ ” Sherman said during a sit-down interview with the Journal. “ ‘I think I’ve gone above and beyond, advocating at caucus, working with AHS. It’s time to cut the crap and go public. I’ve had enough. I’m fed up.’ ”
Five times this past year, Sherman’s 73-year-old father almost died after waiting hours on a stretcher in an ambulance parked outside the University of Alberta Hospital, which has a world-class heart institute. With only 10 per cent of his heart working properly, Sherman’s father was left foaming at the mouth and needed a machine from paramedics to keep him from suffocating.
After each time, Sherman would slam his fists down on the caucus table and speak “very vociferously” to the inner circle. He would phone Alberta Health Services CEO Stephen Duckett and tell him his father had almost died due to delays in access.
“If this has happened to my dad and I’m a doctor and I’m the junior health minister, I’m not asking for special care,” Sherman said. “I know every paramedic and every front-line doctor knows, this is happening to other people’s mothers and fathers, it’s happening to other people’s children.”
His physician colleagues and friends “chewed (his) head off,” unhappy things hadn’t improved even though Sherman, as parliamentary assistant on health, has a direct line to Health Minister Gene Zwozdesky.
At first, Sherman encouraged the doctors to meet with Duckett and Zwozdesky before going to the media. So friend Dr. Paul Parks, section president for the Alberta Medical Association’s emergency medicine section, wrote a letter seeking help for a “potentially catastrophic collapse” of the system.
Then in late October, hours before going to India during a three-week personal leave, Sherman received a call from his mother. His father had just returned home after being in hospital emergency for four days, waiting for a bed and specialist care. He was now having a heart attack. He told his son to get on the plane.
“First of all, I take responsibility,” Sherman said of the public uproar on the emergency crisis. “I blame me. I’ve been in caucus for two and a half years. I played by the rules of parliamentary democracy. I didn’t have the courage to speak up. But there comes a point.”
Pressures came from his three families: his political family, his medical family and his blood family. His brothers asked him to resign from caucus, angry he had left his father in the waiting room, wanting him to focus on his children.
“Resigning is always an option, but I’m not a quitter,” Sherman said. “I also made a commitment to the people of Edmonton-Meadowlark.”
Nor would Sherman let emergency doctors like Parks and Dr. Felix Soibelman, president of the Edmonton Emergency Physicians Association, “take arrows.”
“Any time traditionally they spoke up, they get hammered,” Sherman said. “There’s a whole bunch of intimidation that happens. I’m not going to let these guys take the heat all on their own.”
On Wednesday, Sherman blamed Premier Ed Stelmach and his government. On Thursday, he apologized and instead blasted Alberta Health Services for making “knucklehead” decisions. On Friday, he criticized former health minister Ron Liepert for letting the emergency room crisis drop from his radar, then called Liepert “well-meaning,” though inexperienced. “God bless him. He had a difficult job.”
In the end, Sherman was particularly hard on Alberta Health Services chairman Ken Hughes and the board for their lack of health-care expertise. He said when Hughes first took the job in May 2008, Sherman welcomed the former Tory MP and insurance executive with a hug, then asked him what he was going to do with the health-care system.
“I said, ‘Ken, what are you going to do?’ He said, ‘Raj, give it some time. We’ve only had 92 days into it,’ ” Sherman said. “I go, ‘Ken, you took a job. You want time to learn what’s going on in the most complex organization, most complex issue in the nation? And you want a chance to run around and find out what it’s about? What were you thinking before you accepted the job?’ ”
Whoever hired Hughes, said Sherman, should be questioned. Liepert appointed Hughes as interim chairman when he ousted everyone in the former health regions.
“Amateur hour is up,” said Sherman, who wants to sit down with Hughes to see if he’s gained appropriate experience. “It’s time for the amateurs to move on.”
He refused to say if anyone should be fired, adding “poor Dr. Duckett” rode in 18 months ago after a year wasted with a transition health board.
Hughes and Duckett were not available for comment Friday.
“Somebody must be responsible and accountable,” Sherman said. “At the end of the day, we the elected people will be. We can’t abrogate that responsibility to the board.”
Sherman won’t take the heat off his government and questioned why he should face political fallout for speaking out.
“What kind of consequences could it have for those in politics, where we are running a system where people are dying and hanging themselves in waiting rooms?” he said. “Many of my colleagues in caucus said, ‘You have to take your doctor hat off.’ I said, ‘Why?’ As a politician I have constituents. As a doctor, I have patients. Why cannot the goals of a physician who’s a politician align?
“If we’re making the wrong decisions, then we shouldn’t make them.”
And if the caucus gets impatient with his critiques: “They can chuck me out all they want. I said I will not be silent on health care.
“To me, I’m not much into Liberal, Conservative, NDP. To be honest, I’m everything,” Sherman said. “Do you know why I spoke up? Some poor kid died of a ruptured appendix (while waiting at the Grey Nuns Hospital). As a human being, that hurts. Hurts me when I know that my buddy’s brother hung himself in my department (at the Royal Alexandra Hospital) and I’m in government and I didn’t fight hard enough or slam my fist hard enough. I didn’t have the courage to put my neck on the line. But I told these guys, if I hear of another kid dying in the waiting room, somebody better look out.”
ctvcalgary.ca
Alberta's Health Minister is demanding proof after an MLA made serious allegations in the legislature on Monday.
Dr. Raj Sherman claimed that hundreds of cancer patients died while waiting for surgery in the early years of the last decade.
It has been brought to my attention that due to fierce competition for finite operating time between surgeons, about 1200 Albertans on a wait list for lung surgery, 250 died waiting on that list, many with lung cancer," said Sherman.
Dr. Sherman stood up in the legislature during question period and talked about the deaths and also made claims of fraud and a cover up.
The independent MLA told house members that the doctors who raised these issues were punished, driven out of the province, or paid out millions, to buy their silence.
Health Minister, Gene Zwozdesky says he's never heard anything about this and says Sherman needs to come forward with proof.
"I'm waiting to receive whatever information, evidence if you will, the honourable member might care to present. These are very serious allegations that he has used and named individuals, he has named professional organizations," said Zwozdesky.
Sherman alleges the payouts happened while Gary Mar was the Minister of Health, which was between 2003 and 2006.
MLAs cannot be sued for what they say inside the legislature and Sherman has not repeated the remarks in public.