Applying from Outside of Canada

[andrewmadrid]

Hello All, I would appreciate any advice you have to offer on my situation.

I have PM in Canada expiring in August 2019.

My wife and I lived in Toronto for a little over 3 years. We left Canada in August 2017 to move to the UK for two years while she does a graduate degree.

After deducting all of the days not present in Canada during my time there, I have exactly 1094 days of physical presence in Canada (yes, I know).

My idea is to fly back to Canada and visit a friend in Montreal for 4 days before returning to the UK. (To get my physical presence days over the 1095 mark)


Is it feasible for me to then apply for Citizenship and then return to take the exam and for the ceremony? We are planning to move back to Canada after she graduates in 2019. If can take care of this now I would prefer to, before I have to start the day count again.

I appreciate any advice or thoughts on this situation.

Thanks!

Andrew

 

[dpenabill]

Hello All, I would appreciate any advice you have to offer on my situation.

I have PM in Canada expiring in August 2019.

My wife and I lived in Toronto for a little over 3 years. We left Canada in August 2017 to move to the UK for two years while she does a graduate degree.

After deducting all of the days not present in Canada during my time there, I have exactly 1094 days of physical presence in Canada (yes, I know).

My idea is to fly back to Canada and visit a friend in Montreal for 4 days before returning to the UK. (To get my physical presence days over the 1095 mark)


Is it feasible for me to then apply for Citizenship and then return to take the exam and for the ceremony? We are planning to move back to Canada after she graduates in 2019. If can take care of this now I would prefer to, before I have to start the day count again.

I appreciate any advice or thoughts on this situation.

Thanks!

Andrew

Technically meeting the minimum requirements is one thing. You would really be cutting-it-close.

How this would play out practically is an entirely different story. Remember, it would be utterly stupid to fudge things like your current residential address, so you would need to show your current address is abroad. RED FLAGS WILL FLY. Remember you may need to timely respond to any additional requests IRCC makes, and being abroad dramatically elevates the risk of non-routine, additional requests, and add to that an application barely meeting the very minimum and in that depending on a period of time visiting Canada after an extended absence of many months, also dramatically elevating the risk of additional non-routine requests. Remember that the notice for the test and interview can be fairly short. Being abroad is typically rejected as a justification for missing a scheduled test (though an applicant is given one freebie failure to show). It is more emphatically rejected as a justification for missing a scheduled oath, and the oath can also be scheduled on rather short notice.

Just a Finger Print request could be a problem, since IRCC is now, typically, requiring electronic fingerprints taken here in Canada . . . are you prepared to make a special trip, on fairly short notice, just to timely respond to a finger print request?

Since any IRCC mail will not be sent abroad, you will need to have a representative in Canada so that correspondence can be mailed to the representative (using a Canadian mailing address while your living address is abroad, without designating a representative, would be a clear signal you have an undeclared representative; that's not a good thing).

Among other logistical hurdles, potential nightmares, more than I can think of off the top of my head. Not the least of which is the likely skepticism with which IRCC will approach the application.

But it is your call.

In contrast, if you are carrying a UK passport and do not engage in any risky behavior (anything that could result in criminal charges for example), waiting may be a bit disappointing but should otherwise not be too big a deal.

 

[links18]

You say you are accompanying your wife abroad, while she completes a graduate degree? She is graduating in 2019? What kind of degree? A terminal Master's degree with a fixed period of study or a Ph.D. that requires more of an undetermined stay in residence at the university? When you moved to the UK, did you sever all residential ties to Canada?

 

[meyakanor]

Another risk for applying while living abroad is the fact that you should still need satisfy the residency requirement all the way up to the day you take the oath (and I'm assuming, also at any checkpoint throughout the application process, if not straight any 5 year period during the processing of the application).

You cannot become a citizen if you:

...

• never met or no longer meet the requirements for a grant or resumption of citizenship.

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-citizenship/become-canadian-citizen/eligibility/situtations-prevent-citizenship.html

So you may meet the residency requirement now, but if at any point of time IRCC decides to check on your application, they have the right to make sure that you still have 1095 days within the past five years from that time. This is definitely a requirement even as far as during oath. So if at oath, you cannot go back five years (from the day of the oath) and still have 1095 days, then your application may (and should) be rejected.

So let's say you apply today on January 25 2018. The relevant period is from January 26 2013 to January 25 2018. But let's say you are invited to take your oath on June 1 2019. Then they will look five years from the oath date, and make sure you have at least 1,095 from the oath day (so the relevant period now becomes June 2 2014 to June 1 2019).

So in this example between January 25 2018 all the way until the oath date of June 1 2019, for each of the days, they must be able to look back five years, and be satisfied you are physically present in Canada for at least 1,096 days.

 

[dpenabill]

So you may meet the residency requirement now, but if at any point of time IRCC decides to check on your application, they have the right to make sure that you still have 1095 days within the past five years from that time. This is definitely a requirement even as far as during oath. So if at oath, you cannot go back five years (from the day of the oath) and still have 1095 days, then your application may (and should) be rejected.

So let's say you apply today on January 25 2018. The relevant period is from January 26 2013 to January 25 2018. But let's say you are invited to take your oath on June 1 2019. Then they will look five years from the oath date, and make sure you have at least 1,095 from the oath day (so the relevant period now becomes June 2 2014 to June 1 2019).

So in this example between January 25 2018 all the way until the oath date of June 1 2019, for each of the days, they must be able to look back five years, and be satisfied you are physically present in Canada for at least 1,096 days.

To be clear, meeting the actual physical presence requirement, 1095 days within preceding five years for current applications, is based on the five year time period preceding the date the application is made. No other five year time period.

The eligibility period, during which the applicant needs to have been APP in Canada for 1095+ days, is FIXED based on the date the application is made.

So NO, there is no requirement to have been actually physically present for 1095 days in the five years prior to taking the oath . . . or during any five year period other than that five year period established as of the date the application is signed.

However, the applicant must continue to be in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, and thus must be present in Canada at least 730 days within the preceding five years throughout the period of time the application is in process, right up to the date of taking the oath (with some exceptions for those entitled to credit toward the PR RO while abroad, like a PR accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse).

 

[meyakanor]

The eligibility period, during which the applicant needs to have been APP in Canada for 1095+ days, is FIXED based on the date the application is made.

So NO, there is no requirement to have been actually physically present for 1095 days in the five years prior to taking the oath . . . or during any five year period other than that five year period established as of the date the application is signed.

How would you explain this prohibition then:

You cannot become a citizen if you:

...

• never met or no longer meet the requirements for a grant or resumption of citizenship.

Do they just mean all of the other requirements for citizenship grant except for citizenship residency requirements?

It seems redundant since they have already listed all of the other non-residency related requirements in that list, and also the fact, that, the initial residency requirement has been fixed at the date of application.

How can you ever [no longer] satisfy the citizenship residency requirements if it is fixed at the date of application?

 

[dpenabill]

How would you explain this prohibition then:

You cannot become a citizen if you:

• never met or no longer meet the requirements for a grant or resumption of citizenship.

Do they just mean all of the other requirements for citizenship grant except for citizenship residency requirements?

It seems redundant since they have already listed all of the other non-residency related requirements in that list, and also the fact, that, the initial residency requirement has been fixed at the date of application.

How can you ever [no longer] satisfy the citizenship residency requirements if it is fixed at the date of application?

All the particular requirements must be met. The physical presence requirement is just one of several requirements.

The physical presence requirement is prescribed in Section 5(1)(c)(i) in the Citizenship Act, which specifically prescribes the minimum days presence "during the five years immediately before the date of [the applicant's] application."

The requirement to meet tax filing obligations (Section 5(1)(c)(iii) in the Citizenship Act), is similarly based on taxation years "that are fully or partially within the five years immediately before the date of [the applicant's] application."

Other requirements are not fixed as of a specific time. They must be met on the date the application is made and must continue to be met throughout the time the application is pending (in process), right up to the taking of the oath.

Among such requirements there is the requirement (for persons 18 to 55 at the time of applying) to have an adequate knowledge of one of Canada's official languages (Section 5(1)(d) in the Citizenship Act), for which the applicant must submit proof with the application BUT also must demonstrate this knowledge in the interview.

Other requirements include the requirement to be a Permanent Resident and not be subject to any Removal Orders. To meet the requirements, the applicant must be a PR on the day the application is made and continue to be a PR right up to the date the oath is taken. And not subject to any Removal Orders from the day of applying right up to the day the oath is taken. (This is why the PR RO applies right up to the date of the oath . . . and many PRs who applied-on-the-way-the-airport have run afoul of this when CIC/IRCC delayed processing the citizenship application for years, while the applicant was living abroad, and eventually failing to meet the PR RO, thus no longer meeting the requirements for citizenship.)

There is the requirement that the applicant not be subject to any prohibitions. The various prohibitions are prescribed by subsections in Section 22 in the Citizenship Act.

Among the prohibitions prescribed by Section 22 in the Citizenship Act there is the overriding, broad prohibition stated in SubSection 22(6), which specifically states:
"Despite anything in this Act, a person shall not take the oath of citizenship if they never met or they no longer meet the requirements of this Act for the grant of citizenship."

This is the catchall prohibition and the statutory authority for IRCC the information you quote.

Once the applicant has met the physical present requirement, as of the date of applying, that requirement is met. Again, that requirement is based on a fixed period of time, that period of time determined by the date of the application. How long it takes to process the application has no effect.

But things like having valid PR status, not being subject to any removal order, and not having any prohibitions are requirements which the applicant must meet on the day the applicant applies, and continue to meet right up to taking the oath.

Thus, for example, if the applicant is arrested and charged (even if wrongfully charged) with domestic assault the night before he is scheduled to take the oath, that charge means he is prohibited from taking the oath.

Similarly, if the applicant is abroad and gets notice to take the oath, but upon arrival at the Port-of-Entry he is issued a 44(1) Inadmissibility Report and Departure Order, because CBSA concludes he has not complied with the PR RO, he is prohibited from taking the oath . . . EVEN IF the CBSA report was made in error and is later set aside (once set aside, he would be eligible again but IRCC does not have to wait for there to be a final decision on the 44(1) Report, IRCC can go ahead the deny the application, even as of the day before the oath, and then he would have to reapply).

 

[meyakanor]

All the particular requirements must be met. The physical presence requirement is just one of several requirements.

The physical presence requirement is prescribed in Section 5(1)(c)(i) in the Citizenship Act, which specifically prescribes the minimum days presence "during the five years immediately before the date of [the applicant's] application."

The requirement to meet tax filing obligations (Section 5(1)(c)(iii) in the Citizenship Act), is similarly based on taxation years "that are fully or partially within the five years immediately before the date of [the applicant's] application."

Other requirements are not fixed as of a specific time. They must be met on the date the application is made and must continue to be met throughout the time the application is pending (in process), right up to the taking of the oath.

Among such requirements there is the requirement (for persons 18 to 55 at the time of applying) to have an adequate knowledge of one of Canada's official languages (Section 5(1)(d) in the Citizenship Act), for which the applicant must submit proof with the application BUT also must demonstrate this knowledge in the interview.

Other requirements include the requirement to be a Permanent Resident and not be subject to any Removal Orders. To meet the requirements, the applicant must be a PR on the day the application is made and continue to be a PR right up to the date the oath is taken. And not subject to any Removal Orders from the day of applying right up to the day the oath is taken. (This is why the PR RO applies right up to the date of the oath . . . and many PRs who applied-on-the-way-the-airport have run afoul of this when CIC/IRCC delayed processing the citizenship application for years, while the applicant was living abroad, and eventually failing to meet the PR RO, thus no longer meeting the requirements for citizenship.)

There is the requirement that the applicant not be subject to any prohibitions. The various prohibitions are prescribed by subsections in Section 22 in the Citizenship Act.

Among the prohibitions prescribed by Section 22 in the Citizenship Act there is the overriding, broad prohibition stated in SubSection 22(6), which specifically states:
"Despite anything in this Act, a person shall not take the oath of citizenship if they never met or they no longer meet the requirements of this Act for the grant of citizenship."

This is the catchall prohibition and the statutory authority for IRCC the information you quote.

Once the applicant has met the physical present requirement, as of the date of applying, that requirement is met. Again, that requirement is based on a fixed period of time, that period of time determined by the date of the application. How long it takes to process the application has no effect.

But things like having valid PR status, not being subject to any removal order, and not having any prohibitions are requirements which the applicant must meet on the day the applicant applies, and continue to meet right up to taking the oath.

Thus, for example, if the applicant is arrested and charged (even if wrongfully charged) with domestic assault the night before he is scheduled to take the oath, that charge means he is prohibited from taking the oath.

Similarly, if the applicant is abroad and gets notice to take the oath, but upon arrival at the Port-of-Entry he is issued a 44(1) Inadmissibility Report and Departure Order, because CBSA concludes he has not complied with the PR RO, he is prohibited from taking the oath . . . EVEN IF the CBSA report was made in error and is later set aside (once set aside, he would be eligible again but IRCC does not have to wait for there to be a final decision on the 44(1) Report, IRCC can go ahead the deny the application, even as of the day before the oath, and then he would have to reapply).

Thanks for clarifying. It makes sense now. I checked the list of prohibitions again, and it didn't mention all of the other requirements for citizenship grant. I stand corrected. My tendency is to interpret the law conservatively, and sometimes that leads to me reading the law too conservatively.

Now, I wonder, what if a PR no longer satisfies the residency obligation, but was never reported. The PR would never then be in removal order, since a report was never made against them. I'm assuming that CIC reserves the right to deny the citizenship grant application all the way until the oath date, but they technically are never in removal order or under Section 44 report, so if somehow such a PR gets sworn in, would he technically commit misrepresentation?

Your PR status must not be in question. This means you must not:

• be under review for immigration or fraud reasons
• have certain unfulfilled conditions related to your PR status
• be under a removal order (an order from Canadian officials to leave Canada)

I wonder if having 'certain unfulfilled conditions related to your PR status' includes not meeting the residency obligation, despite never having been reported. My guess is, it's better for such a PR to withdraw the application then re-apply, even they somehow got in without getting reported.

 

[dpenabill]

Thanks for clarifying. It makes sense now. I checked the list of prohibitions again, and it didn't mention all of the other requirements for citizenship grant. I stand corrected. My tendency is to interpret the law conservatively, and sometimes that leads to me reading the law too conservatively.

Now, I wonder, what if a PR no longer satisfies the residency obligation, but was never reported. The PR would never then be in removal order, since a report was never made against them. I'm assuming that CIC reserves the right to deny the citizenship grant application all the way until the oath date, but they technically are never in removal order or under Section 44 report, so if somehow such a PR gets sworn in, would he technically commit misrepresentation?



I wonder if having 'certain unfulfilled conditions related to your PR status' includes not meeting the residency obligation, despite never having been reported. My guess is, it's better for such a PR to withdraw the application then re-apply, even they somehow got in without getting reported.

As for "conditions," I am quite confident this term is very specifically used. Some PRs have explicit conditions stated in their CoPR. These are, it is my impression, less common these days.

In contrast, I am likewise quite confident "conditions" is not a generic, general usage reference.

For example, as I recall some entrepreneur class PRs had to make certain investments or start a business as a condition of their PR status. Before the Liberal's removed it, spousal sponsored PRs had to live together with the sponsor for two years as a formal condition.

As for PR-citizenship-applicants who are no longer in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation but have not been reported: there is nothing to indicate the PR RO is in any way self-executing or self-enforcing. There is no doubt, in contrast, if not reported a PR can cure the breach by simply staying in Canada long enough to be in compliance.

So, no, there is no compelling reason for a PR-citizenship-applicant to volunteer or announce or declare a breach of the PR RO if not directly asked. However, these days the odds of a PR in breach of the PR RO returning to Canada without being examined as to compliance seems low. In the past, it is apparent that there may have been FOSS alerts to refer returning citizenship applicants to Secondary if the applicant was returning after an extended absence. Fair chance something like that still plays a role. That is, in the past many of those who applied-on-the-way-the-airport had notes in their file and tended to be pulled aside upon returning to Canada, particularly after extended absences.

Making a misrepresentation about time abroad in the course of an examination at the border could now be a stand-alone ground for losing PR status, so that would be a bad choice, risk losing PR status altogether in order to an attempt to slide in under the wire obtaining citizenship.