Reflection concerning validity period of the Canadian permanent resident card. Why not more than 5 years? Some concrete examples from other countries.

[armoured]

It is possible IRCC could decide to issue PR cards for longer time periods. Yes, it might happen. Sometime down the road perhaps. Not likely anytime soon since there are so many far more pressing priorities the government needs to address in the current situation.

I have only one small but hopefully important comment on this discussion:

I think the vast majority of complaints about the length of PR card validity from 'good faith'* in-compliance PRs would disappear if the average processing time for PR renewal cards were substantially lower, say 30-60 days. Possibly would help if PRs could apply at more flexible periods (e.g. in advance of the PR card expiry).

*I'm not defining good faith here, and probably not the right term. I very roughly mean those well in compliance with RO, well-documented entries and exits, etc, and whatever other clear evidence that normally resident in Canada.

Regardless of how it may be defined, if MOST renewals were done quickly and routinely, the validity period would be a much less significant point of friction, as it seems to me most/many of the issues come from what seem very long time periods to get new PR cards issued.

One opinion only.

 

[canuck78]

I have only one small but hopefully important comment on this discussion:

I think the vast majority of complaints about the length of PR card validity from 'good faith'* in-compliance PRs would disappear if the average processing time for PR renewal cards were substantially lower, say 30-60 days. Possibly would help if PRs could apply at more flexible periods (e.g. in advance of the PR card expiry).

*I'm not defining good faith here, and probably not the right term. I very roughly mean those well in compliance with RO, well-documented entries and exits, etc, and whatever other clear evidence that normally resident in Canada.

Regardless of how it may be defined, if MOST renewals were done quickly and routinely, the validity period would be a much less significant point of friction, as it seems to me most/many of the issues come from what seem very long time periods to get new PR cards issued.

One opinion only.

You can apply in advance of your PR card expiry date. Agree that if there were more prompt PR renewals it would be helpful but some due an extensive amount of travel or are only applying with slightly more than 730 days so their applications are more difficult to process. unfortunately those who attempt (or do) to cheat the system ruin it for everyone else)

 

[armoured]

You can apply in advance of your PR card expiry date. Agree that if there were more prompt PR renewals it would be helpful but some due an extensive amount of travel or are only applying with slightly more than 730 days so their applications are more difficult to process. unfortunately those who attempt (or do) to cheat the system ruin it for everyone else)

Yes, I agree - particularly that the borderline or not-compliant cases (or in some cases outright cheating) do inordinately affect the system.

However from the self-reporting here it seems a lot of them take considerably longer. Indeed my impression is all take quite a long time, but I readily admit that I don't know how much that is covid-related delays or just that the cases we hear about here are predominantly edge cases.

And I may be wrong, was under the impression that gnerally you can only apply "close to" the expiry date. Anyway that's a minor aspect compared to the uncertainty of having long renewal timeframes. It just creates extra friction and pain.

Anyway I see zero likelihood the five year validity will be changed, and efforts to change that misguided; pushing for better service (for simple cases) is far more likely to bear fruit.

 

[canuck78]

Yes, I agree - particularly that the borderline or not-compliant cases (or in some cases outright cheating) do inordinately affect the system.

However from the self-reporting here it seems a lot of them take considerably longer. Indeed my impression is all take quite a long time, but I readily admit that I don't know how much that is covid-related delays or just that the cases we hear about here are predominantly edge cases.

And I may be wrong, was under the impression that gnerally you can only apply "close to" the expiry date. Anyway that's a minor aspect compared to the uncertainty of having long renewal timeframes. It just creates extra friction and pain.

Anyway I see zero likelihood the five year validity will be changed, and efforts to change that misguided; pushing for better service (for simple cases) is far more likely to bear fruit.

Believe you can apply 9 months before the expiry date. Many cases where people arrived not compliant with their RO or applying right after the 730 days. Unfortunately seems to delay those who have barely left and remained in Canada for 5 years. There are also quite a few who “forget“ trips, some forge stamps, etc.

 

[armoured]

Unfortunately seems to delay those who have barely left and remained in Canada for 5 years.

Agree on your points; this is why I think a lot would be improved if they could dramatically reduce the delays for those clearly in compliance. (I think to be fair, an area where they've made improvements in at least some other programs)

 

[piotrqc]

You can apply in advance of your PR card expiry date. Agree that if there were more prompt PR renewals it would be helpful but some due an extensive amount of travel or are only applying with slightly more than 730 days so their applications are more difficult to process. unfortunately those who attempt (or do) to cheat the system ruin it for everyone else)

It is precisely to dispel these legitimate concerns (Nobody here is against the law, or even its spirit) that I spoke about more controls and stamps in the passports at the exit ... Why is nobody talking about it? ...

This is the real anomaly, I believe ... And which, by domino effect, affects the "good liver" = Honest people suffer the consequences. (Very very long renewal times - it will still be like a nightmare with the current COVID calamity situation -, short period of validity of the pr card, climate of unhealthy mistrust towards pr people ...)

One of the rare times that the subject of output checks and stamps has been addressed here is in this link (without anyone discussing the reason), it seems fairly accepted and doesn't shock anyone:

https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/exit-stamp-is-missing.253528/


To come back to what our friend @Almost_Canadian was saying, and answer him:

As for the examples of European residence card, you have to check if their compliance allows to stay out of the country for years at a time ( as in 3 years out of 5 for Canada).

The rules in terms of duration vary from one European country to another, but this is interesting in their case, and beyond the particular context of the common Schengen area, and that the whole European area is considered in the calculation of the duration of presence for citizenship, for example, it is this:

- They are mainly based on taxation. Mainly annual tax reports.
- But also and above all, the common European register, shared by all the member countries of the union and of the Schengen area, a file which makes it possible to track all the entries and exits of people in space.

It is this registry system that allows most European countries to offer loan equivalents with durations varying between 7 and 10 years, without any problem.

Each country therefore has its own national register (and its own exit stamp, with the specific acronym of the country), a register which is shared with all the other countries in the European area.

Moreover, for the anecdote of this singularity of Canada and the USA, it seems to me that they are one of the rare countries in the world which do not have exit stamps, nor control ...

Here is a gallery with all the entry and exit stamps for most countries in the world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallery_of_passport_stamps_by_country_or_territory

In summary, the establishment of controls + an exit stamp in Canada
integrity (Exactly like The Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) does at the entrance), will solve the problem once and for all, in my opinion, on several levels:

- People who fear for the integrity of the immigration system will be reassured (Unless their intentions are other than integrity, and just complicate the lives of foreigners ... Possible too, unfortunately)
- People pr statut will have more flexibility and less time, and will increase their chances of never having to renew their pr card before it expires: It will be cut out during the citizenship ceremony.

I still think it's worth contacting the press + sending feedback to IRCC CIC ... Nothing to lose.

 

[canuck78]

It is precisely to dispel these legitimate concerns (Nobody here is against the law, or even its spirit) that I spoke about more controls and stamps in the passports at the exit ... Why is nobody talking about it? ...

This is the real anomaly, I believe ... And which, by domino effect, affects the "good liver" = Honest people suffer the consequences. (Very very long renewal times - it will still be like a nightmare with the current COVID calamity situation -, short period of validity of the pr card, climate of unhealthy mistrust towards pr people ...)

One of the rare times that the subject of output checks and stamps has been addressed here is in this link (without anyone discussing the reason), it seems fairly accepted and doesn't shock anyone:

https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/exit-stamp-is-missing.253528/


To come back to what our friend @Almost_Canadian was saying, and answer him:



The rules in terms of duration vary from one European country to another, but this is interesting in their case, and beyond the particular context of the common Schengen area, and that the whole European area is considered in the calculation of the duration of presence for citizenship, for example, it is this:

- They are mainly based on taxation. Mainly annual tax reports.
- But also and above all, the common European register, shared by all the member countries of the union and of the Schengen area, a file which makes it possible to track all the entries and exits of people in space.

It is this registry system that allows most European countries to offer loan equivalents with durations varying between 7 and 10 years, without any problem.

Each country therefore has its own national register (and its own exit stamp, with the specific acronym of the country), a register which is shared with all the other countries in the European area.

Moreover, for the anecdote of this singularity of Canada and the USA, it seems to me that they are one of the rare countries in the world which do not have exit stamps, nor control ...

Here is a gallery with all the entry and exit stamps for most countries in the world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallery_of_passport_stamps_by_country_or_territory

In summary, the establishment of controls + an exit stamp in Canada
integrity (Exactly like The Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) does at the entrance), will solve the problem once and for all, in my opinion, on several levels:

- People who fear for the integrity of the immigration system will be reassured (Unless their intentions are other than integrity, and just complicate the lives of foreigners ... Possible too, unfortunately)
- People pr statut will have more flexibility and less time, and will increase their chances of never having to renew their pr card before it expires: It will be cut out during the citizenship ceremony.

I still think it's worth contacting the press + sending feedback to IRCC CIC ... Nothing to lose.

Not sure why you think comparing how the EU functions means that Canada should do the same. Very different countries and immigration systems. Go ahead and contact them. Have a pretty good feeling that your plan to turn PR cards from 5-10 years is very low on the priority list in terms of immigration reform especially at the moment. Stamps have become electronic records in a large number of countries.

 

[piotrqc]

And I may be wrong, was under the impression that gnerally you can only apply "close to" the expiry date. Anyway that's a minor aspect compared to the uncertainty of having long renewal timeframes. It just creates extra friction and pain.

You are right, the IRCC CIC website talks about 6 months before the end of the pr card expiration date ... This means that the renewal request envelopes will be returned to the applicant if they send rather than 6 months ?

Note: After verification, yes, it is. We are therefore limited to a 9 ( not 6) -months margin to send the renewal request, otherwise the request is returned.
See here :

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5445-applying-permanent-resident-card-card-first-application-replacement-renewal-change-gender-identifier.html

Important information: If your PR Card is still valid for more than nine (9) months (270 days), do not apply for a renewal, unless your legal name has changed. Otherwise, your application will be returned.

In other words: If the processing time is more than 9 months, we are de facto condemned to have a period with an expired card.

 

[piotrqc]

Not sure why you think comparing how the EU functions means that Canada should do the same. Very different countries and immigration systems. Go ahead and contact them. Have a pretty good feeling that your plan to turn PR cards from 5-10 years is very low on the priority list in terms of immigration reform especially at the moment. Stamps have become electronic records in a large number of countries.

I know that the systems of each countrys are very differents ... I was only offering ideas, or beggening of idea for reflection.

You still do not speak to the essential question, in my opinion. The absence of control and stamp at the exit.

Agree that if this detail is adopted, it will remove the fears related to fraud and the integrity of the system?

People will no longer be able to lie or cheat, because all their entries and exits will be recorded.

 

[canuck78]

I know that the systems of each countrys are very differents ... I was only offering ideas, or beggening of idea for reflection.

You still do not speak to the essential question, in my opinion. The absence of control and stamp at the exit.

Agree that if this detail is adopted, it will remove the fears related to fraud and the integrity of the system?

People will no longer be able to lie or cheat, because all their entries and exits will be recorded.

Canada has been working towards entry and exit controls. Hopefully the system will be completed soon.

 

[kabayan]

I have been reading on the various points above and I just want to share my point of view in the matter. Most people tend to misunderstand the purpose of the PR card and having the PR status.

- First the PR card, is exactly that - a card that proves you are a PR and a document you show to the POE to enter Canada.
- The PR status though even if the PR card is expired can still be active as long as you comply with the PR requirement of being in Canada for 730 days in a rolling 5 year period.

The PR status is not based on the card's validity but based on your compliance of the PR obligation.

The only downside of not being able to renew your card on time is when you have to travel. Nevertheless, if you complied with the residency requirements and you are outside Canada when your card expires, you can still request for PRTD with no issues and enter Canada accordingly.

Just an FYI for those in doubt;

"You don’t lose your permanent resident status when your PR card expires. You can only lose your status if you go through an official process.

You can lose your permanent resident status if:

• an adjudicator determines you are no longer a permanent resident after an inquiry or PRTD appeal;
• you voluntarily renounce your permanent resident status;
• a removal order is made against you and comes into force; or
• you become a Canadian citizen.

Even if you don't meet the residency obligation, you are still a PR until an official decision is made on your status."

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/new-immigrants/pr-card/understand-pr-status.html

 

[piotrqc]

Canada has been working towards entry and exit controls. Hopefully the system will be completed soon.

You're right, the (fully electronic) program was supposed to end around the end of 2019 ...
Hopefully it will happen soon
.
See this article from Radio-Canada (French section of CBC):

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1160416/canada-immigration-controle-frontieres

The article is in French, my apologies, but to summarize, it says that the desire to go towards surveillance and control of exits is fueled mainly for reasons of national security, fighting crime, etc ...

This is very good ... But it could also constitute a solid base for those who will still be people with pr status when it is effective: A solid argument for asking for a pr card with a longer validity period, objections such as "risk of non-compliance with RO, people cheating, etc." will no longer exist, and will be ineffective, " caduque ''.

Laws and regulations in general are made to be changed and adapt to the realities of people and of the present day. Not to be frozen in time.

 

[canuck78]

You're right, the (fully electronic) program was supposed to end around the end of 2019 ...
Hopefully it will happen soon
.
See this article from Radio-Canada (French section of CBC):

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1160416/canada-immigration-controle-frontieres

The article is in French, my apologies, but to summarize, it says that the desire to go towards surveillance and control of exits is fueled mainly for reasons of national security, fighting crime, etc ...

This is very good ... But it could also constitute a solid base for those who will still be people with pr status when it is effective: A solid argument for asking for a pr card with a longer validity period, objections such as "risk of non-compliance with RO, people cheating, etc." will no longer exist, and will be ineffective, " caduque ''.

Laws and regulations in general are made to be changed and adapt to the realities of people and of the present day. Not to be frozen in time.

As you pointed out PR status is not lost just because your PR card is expired so people will be allowed to enter Canada because they remain PRs. Needing a valid PR card to get to Canada allows the government to flag people who are not compliant trying to enter Canada via things like a PRTD application.

 

[piotrqc]

You come back to the starting point, it's discouraging, it must be said ...
The pr card is an identity document to prove a person's permanent resident status, not a control tool ... You maintain that it is a control tool, whereas it is nowhere mentioned, nor in the law, nor in its spirit ... I would have liked more that you express more clearly the real reasons (ideological, political, others?) for which you are opposed to the extension of the period of validity of pr card (Who is status proof, just a map, not the status itself), instead of blithely attaching yourself to a bone, the hypothetical 'need to control people' bone.

Again, people are mature and know what they are doing = will bear the consequences of their RO failure ... And it is certainly not the length of time the card is valid that will ...

This is not his role. The pr card is not a control tool. These are the law, Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA), and possibly the court (The Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada (IRB)), which deals with ruling on the loss or not of the quality of permanent resident for a person. . Not the pr card ... It's just a piece of plastic that serves as proof. Extending its validity will not change the regulations, and people who do not respect the OR will continue to lose their status, don't worry ...

Your reasoning, with all due respect, is misleading, misleading ... and will be even more false when the exits are controlled as I have explained.

 

[armoured]

There is an aspect in which it's a somewhat effective control tool. It's the document that essentially allows PRs to board a plane to Canada - and given geography, that is a somewhat effective control (see below notes about USA gap, which is just an accepted cost).

Specific case: PR who is not in compliance with residency obligation finds themselves abroad at or after expiry of card. If they are not able to travel through the united states, they must apply for a PRTD. Examination of compliance follows and then refusal (and subsequent steps that can lead to stripping of PR status).

In comparison, removal of an individual after entry to Canada is expensive and lengthy, so it is an aspect of control that (potentially) saves the government money. (Yes, the entry through USA is a gap, but that's effectively an accepted gap on assumption - perhaps erroneous - that some significant proportion of travellers from USA have other options and are more likely to return to their home country or some other residence like the USA. Just a reality of geography)

And I would add that while you say "we are all adults and take responsibility" - true of course in many respects, but on the other hand we see many, many sob stories here from individuals who claim not to have understood the residency obligation. Perhaps they did not understand, perhaps they did and hoped that claiming they didn't will help on appeal. Either way, the coincidence of the expiry of the PR card roughly with the five year anniversary does appear to serve as a disciplining factor, albeit an imperfect one. (Or put differently, if the card was issued for ten years and the residency obligations unchanged, I believe there would inevitably be more cases of people claiming they didn't know, the card is still valid, etc, etc. - while those arguments don't appear to usually carry much weight except for e.g. minors, they still must - by law and regulation - be considered and given a fair hearing, which also costs money and time.)

As it stands in practice the border officers have considerable room for leniency for those somewhat-out-fo compliance, and they seem to be lenient relatively often. (And once in country the major constraint - if out of compliance and/or no PR card - is the ability to travel abroad, a VERY generous approach in most respects).

So I don't agree with your reasoning. Not to say that the five year validity is perfect but it does serve some purpose. And because the inconvenience is relatively modest for those that are fully compliant with residency obligations, I don't see much genuine demand to change it.

That said, there are corner cases or individual cases where it is more of an inconvenience. As I've stated above, I think reducing the processing time for renewal to a short period for the "easy cases" would remove most of the issue. (Indeed having accurate information would improve their ability to start revocation or refusal procedures more quickly). This won't happen overnight due to the five-year rolling period i.e. uncertainty about exits prior to 2019.

And yes, having a better implemented / accurate exit data system - which in practice means mostly with USA as the most significant gap - should help in improving ability to renew quickly, and I hope they do.