Average GP in Alberta should be making at least 200k. Most make between 300 to 400k with a full practice. And yes after expenses on a 70/30 split.
IMG in Canada : How are you surviving?
- Thread starter One chance
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No man. McDonald's wont hire doctors to flip burgers. At least that was what I was told when I went for my interview with McDonalds when I first landed in Edmonton. They say that I would leave them when I got back into medicine so it was a waste of time training me.PLEASE STOP wasting your time coming to Canada if you are a Doctor . The only place you will get a job is at Mc Donald's and I am not joking. The exam system has had some reform this year but before you cry yippee, it is just a façade. The only thing you can try to get into when you get your academic record straight, that is retaking courses like basic sciences and so forth because I am sure most of you have done that eons ago, you can try going to Nursing school . But even there you will have problems because as soon they know you are a Dr, they start singling you out as overqualified, an independent thinker, etc. If you lie about who you are , that means you have to restart your college education to mask your degree. Sure there are other jobs around but with your MD degree, they will judge you overqualified and know eventually you will leave because you want to work as a Dr. They do not know the rugged process which is near impossible to accomplish. SO PLEASE whatever your condition, unless you are ready to do anything besides being in medicine, DO NOT IMMIGRATE HERE. Even if you do make it eventually as a Nurse, you will curse your existence everyday being in the hospital and seeing people more stupid than you working as Drs . Do not believe any adverts saying Canada needs Drs...…..THIS IS NOT TRUE
My advice is come to Canada if you want. Find one of those jobs that people dont want. Laborer type hard work. It actually pays better than minimum wage funny eh? Pays the bills. Gives you some confidence. Allows you to enjoy life in Canada without feeling totally bad because you are just spending your hard earned savings.
Take the exams. Do well. Then apply to family medicine residency programs and see how that goes. You wont know till you try. The path is long but the journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step and then the next and next......
It is like driving through flood waters. You decide to go and keep going and hope you get out successfully. Do not hesitate!
I have a fellow Singaporean doctor who married a Canadian guy she met while doing mission work in Afghanistan. She moved to Vancouver mid 2000s. Because she read all these negative stories about how impossible it is to get residency and not be able to practice in Canada she didnt want to waste her time and effort with exams and all.....so she worked part time at McDonald's.
Until one fine day a common friend told her that I had got into U of C family medicine program. She contacted me. I gave her all the steps as well as shared all the question banks and medical textbooks I had with her.
She matched into UBC family medicine in 2015. So it can be done. In fact I know more IMGs who are back in medicine in Canada than IMGs who are not.
Seriously where are the IMGs who have got back into medicine? No one out there who will post here?
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http://www.rxpgonline.com/mccee-mccqe.html
For IMGs this is the go to forum to discuss on exams and CaRMS etc.
Good luck guys. Dont ever lose hope. Keep trying. You get better as you keep trying. Most do not get through on their first try but many do eventually succeed as long as they dont give up.
For IMGs this is the go to forum to discuss on exams and CaRMS etc.
Good luck guys. Dont ever lose hope. Keep trying. You get better as you keep trying. Most do not get through on their first try but many do eventually succeed as long as they dont give up.
Alberta pays it’s doctors better than many other provinces. Expenses also may be lower than other larger cities. Probably lowballed it a bit but most GPs in Canada are not taking home over 200k unless they are working 6 days a week and seeing patients every 5 minutes. In many provinces 120K is pretty realistic take home for a GP. Obviously they can structure their business so they make more than a salaried person at 120K.Average GP in Alberta should be making at least 200k. Most make between 300 to 400k with a full practice. And yes after expenses on a 70/30 split.
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@canuck78 geez sister! Fancy that I found you here too!
I am an IMG myself. Moved from Singapore in 2010. Graduated 1998.
I did my research and knew getting back into medicine was almost impossible. Worked for me since I really wasnt keen to be in medicine anymore.
In 2010 my first job was as a general laborer at McLeod Windows in Edmonton.
In 2012 I started as a junior surface land administrator at Scott Land and Lease in Edmonton. I got promoted to Project Manager for the CNRL account in 2013.
Meanwhile I passed my MCCEE in 2011. MCCQE1 in 2012 Spring. NACOSCE fall 2012. MMI fall 2012.
I applied to CaRMS 2012 and only to the U of C family med program. I wasn't keen to do hospital rotations again and the U of C urban program is mostly community based with like 1 month of Internal Med and calls. So even though I was in Edmonton I chose not to apply to U of A.
Oh...and I did ZERO observorships. I was adamant I wasnt going to waste my time doing stuff that paid nothing.
Basically at the time in 2013 I was doing well in oil and gas. On my way to taking my Landman licensing course and oil was booming. So I didnt really care if I got into medicine again. But i really just had to take the exams and go through the whole application process as due diligence. Seriously the exams were easy. I dont understand why some IMGs say it is too difficult. When I took the exams I was about 13 to 14 years post graduating med school.
Anyway CaRMs came and I did NOT match. I told my manager at Scott Land that I didnt get it and was ready to commit to Land Admin. I had a nice pay rise and promotion.
A week later I get an email from the Residency program they asked me to call them. I did. They said that someone had pulled out of the program and I was next on the list and asked if I wanted the spot. Man when someone asks like that you better say yes!
Anyway long story cut short I moved to Calgary did my 3 month externship which was a pain. Passed. Went on to finish the 2 year family med residency and cleared the combined MCCQE2 and CCFP exam (it was combined for 2015 we did the QE2 and SAMPS). Wasnt difficult really. The SAMPS are easier than UK style actual patient type exams with long and short.
So here I am been in family medicine for the past 4 years now and it has been a ride!
So IMGs out there....really......it can be done. I would say that realistically look at Family Med Pediatrics and Internal Medicine. The other specialties are touch and go. And surgical disciplines you can pretty much forget it. I was a surgical trainee back in Singapore for 4 years then spent another 4 years as a GP before moving to Canada.
Study hard for the exams and do as many questions from the Qbanks and what not. Studying is one thing but you need to do questions. And for the clinicals practice with someone. I did it with my daughter. I gave her the marking sheets and she would mark me for the NACOSCE.
I do recommend that you find a job and work and earn a living. Dont be stubborn and have these ideas that other jobs are beneath you and that you are a doctor and what not. If you go to ghe residency interviews with your confidence shot because you have been jobless for a few years and stressed about finances it is going to show. Interview technique is paramount. And the best way to hone it is to go for all those job interviews you will need to get that first job.
Oh and of course you really need luck. I was darn lucky I will admit.
I am not sure what to make of observorships. I have heard from preceptors that observorships are useless. But then every IMG who matched that I know did some observorships in some way or another. Something about needing Canadian doctors as references?
I wish each and every one of you all the best and hope you do find success in getting back into medicine in Canada.
Financially it is very good and stable. I dont really enjoy medicine but I don't regret going back. Especially on hindsight. 2015 was when the oil patch crashed. So it was good I had become a doctor once again but in Canada.
Cheers!
@canuck78 are you a doctor too? IMG? Or CMG? CCFP? Retired?
As you admit you got very lucky and someone dropped out. Had a person not dropped out who knows what would have happened and dropping out of a residency program is pretty unusual. IMGs that are GPs, psychiatrist and pathologist have a significantly higher chance of actually getting licensed. If you speak French your chances go up as well. If you are not a GP in your home country you are unlikely to match to a GP residency. You also got admitted before a cohort of increased enrolment graduated. The chances are still quite low and you could go unmatched for many years. It makes no sense to fight to get licensed when you could work other places easily.
There are certainly not more IMGs working as physicians than not. All the data proves otherwise and those are only IMGs actually attempting to get licensed.
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Well there is a saying you make your own luck too.As you admit you got very lucky and someone dropped out. Had a person not dropped out who knows what would have happened and dropping out of a residency program is pretty unusual. IMGs that are GPs, psychiatrist and pathologist have a significantly higher chance of actually getting licensed. If you speak French your chances go up as well. If you are not a GP in your home country you are unlikely to match to a GP residency. You also got admitted before a cohort of increased enrolment graduated. The chances are still quite low and you could go unmatched for many years. It makes no sense to fight to get licensed when you could work other places easily.
There are certainly not more IMGs working as physicians than not. All the data proves otherwise and those are only IMGs actually attempting to get licensed.
You still have to take and pass all the exams with very good scores. Ace the residency interview. In order to have been the 11th ranked out of hundreds competing for the 10 spots for IMGs in the u of C urban program.
Luck isnt the whole story.
And what about the other 9 IMGs who did the program with me? One of them was much older than me. He was in his late 40s. So yes they tend to want younger doctors. Remember they dont actually ask you for your age. So look young during the interview.
And my friend in Vancouver who got matched the first time? I am sure her mission work in Afghanistan must have set her apart from the field.
I believe it was my experience during SARS epidemic in Singapore that I shared with the interviewers that helped them remember me.
When it comes to competitions that have only a 10% success rate you do need to think out of the ordinary to stand out.
The problem I saw during my journey was all these doctors going for courses to teach them ONE method to follow. Essentially that made them all the same.
Doctors tend to believe "my way is the best" and want everyone to follow.
It works after you are in the system. Guidelines etc.
But to stand out you have to find what makes you unique and different from the rest and highlight that.
Good luck to all IMGs out there! Keep trying!
120k a year for GPs in Canada? Where did you hear that from?Alberta pays it’s doctors better than many other provinces. Expenses also may be lower than other larger cities. Probably lowballed it a bit but most GPs in Canada are not taking home over 200k unless they are working 6 days a week and seeing patients every 5 minutes. In many provinces 120K is pretty realistic take home for a GP. Obviously they can structure their business so they make more than a salaried person at 120K.
I think most data shows an average of 200 to 300k.
10k a month is not much if you compare it globally.
I will say that this was an issue for me when I was pondering whether to go back to medicine. If it is just 10k a month really there are many other jobs to get into that are less difficult and pay about the same.
But after having gone back to medicine in Canada I will say dont look at those data and naysayers. It is financially very good.
Have you looked at the physician pay rate in the Maritimes and Quebec? 120k after expenses just to be clear.120k a year for GPs in Canada? Where did you hear that from?
I think most data shows an average of 200 to 300k.
10k a month is not much if you compare it globally.
I will say that this was an issue for me when I was pondering whether to go back to medicine. If it is just 10k a month really there are many other jobs to get into that are less difficult and pay about the same.
But after having gone back to medicine in Canada I will say dont look at those data and naysayers. It is financially very good.
You actually said you didn’t get matched and only got a spot because someone dropped out. Would consider that luck. You usually don’t have people dropping out of residencies after their match. Never said anything about the various licensing exams. Most IMGs do pass then on their first or second try. That isn't the big issue for most IMGs. Family medicine is also a different story when you compare it to specialists. In any interview you need to try and stand out to get the job. There was a Brazilian IMG who was trying to get into the SK underserviced area GP program and I recommended he not move to Toronto first to study. He should get involved in SK and establish himself so the program has confidence he will stay if he gets selected. If you are certain specialties where there is such a small chance of getting selected it makes no sense to move to Canada. There won’t be leftover unmatched ophthalmology, dermatology, radiology, plastics, etc. residencies. While looking to immigrate it would be best to pick a country where your chances of being able to work are very high. If you are moving do to a Canadian spouse then you should try your luck to see if you can get a match.Well there is a saying you make your own luck too.
You still have to take and pass all the exams with very good scores. Ace the residency interview. In order to have been the 11th ranked out of hundreds competing for the 10 spots for IMGs in the u of C urban program.
Luck isnt the whole story.
And what about the other 9 IMGs who did the program with me? One of them was much older than me. He was in his late 40s. So yes they tend to want younger doctors. Remember they dont actually ask you for your age. So look young during the interview.
And my friend in Vancouver who got matched the first time? I am sure her mission work in Afghanistan must have set her apart from the field.
I believe it was my experience during SARS epidemic in Singapore that I shared with the interviewers that helped them remember me.
When it comes to competitions that have only a 10% success rate you do need to think out of the ordinary to stand out.
The problem I saw during my journey was all these doctors going for courses to teach them ONE method to follow. Essentially that made them all the same.
Doctors tend to believe "my way is the best" and want everyone to follow.
It works after you are in the system. Guidelines etc.
But to stand out you have to find what makes you unique and different from the rest and highlight that.
Good luck to all IMGs out there! Keep trying!
Just and FYI but you can easily figure out someone’s approximate age by looking at their CV.
You are a cold sister.You actually said you didn’t get matched and only got a spot because someone dropped out. Would consider that luck. You usually don’t have people dropping out of residencies after their match. Never said anything about the various licensing exams. Most IMGs do pass then on their first or second try. That isn't the big issue for most IMGs. Family medicine is also a different story when you compare it to specialists. In any interview you need to try and stand out to get the job. There was a Brazilian IMG who was trying to get into the SK underserviced area GP program and I recommended he not move to Toronto first to study. He should get involved in SK and establish himself so the program has confidence he will stay if he gets selected. If you are certain specialties where there is such a small chance of getting selected it makes no sense to move to Canada. There won’t be leftover unmatched ophthalmology, dermatology, radiology, plastics, etc. residencies. While looking to immigrate it would be best to pick a country where your chances of being able to work are very high. If you are moving do to a Canadian spouse then you should try your luck to see if you can get a match.
Just and FYI but you can easily figure out someone’s approximate age by looking at their CV.
Come on. Give me some credit.
Yes I got lucky. But I was quite surprised that I even ranked 11th considering I had zero observorships.
Would I have matched if I applied again the following year?
Anyway it is all history. At least I am honest about how I matched. I hope it gives IMGs hope.
Miracles do happen. And luck can fall your way. But you do need to have positioned yourself at the right place and right time.
Wow that's sad. Do you have any links to that information?Have you looked at the physician pay rate in the Maritimes and Quebec? 120k after expenses just to be clear.
I found this
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/family-doctors-health-care-the-search-pay-models-1.4520132
It puts Nova Scotia family doctors at the bottom with an average of $259,368. Is their cost sharing 50/50?
For Quebec it is $284,952.
For Ontario it is $363,879
I find it hard to say that MOST GPs in Canada only earn $120k a year.
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Thank you very much indeed. what feedback I badly need. :@canuck78 geez sister! Fancy that I found you here too!
I am an IMG myself. Moved from Singapore in 2010. Graduated 1998.
I did my research and knew getting back into medicine was almost impossible. Worked for me since I really wasnt keen to be in medicine anymore.
In 2010 my first job was as a general laborer at McLeod Windows in Edmonton.
In 2012 I started as a junior surface land administrator at Scott Land and Lease in Edmonton. I got promoted to Project Manager for the CNRL account in 2013.
Meanwhile I passed my MCCEE in 2011. MCCQE1 in 2012 Spring. NACOSCE fall 2012. MMI fall 2012.
I applied to CaRMS 2012 and only to the U of C family med program. I wasn't keen to do hospital rotations again and the U of C urban program is mostly community based with like 1 month of Internal Med and calls. So even though I was in Edmonton I chose not to apply to U of A.
Oh...and I did ZERO observorships. I was adamant I wasnt going to waste my time doing stuff that paid nothing.
Basically at the time in 2013 I was doing well in oil and gas. On my way to taking my Landman licensing course and oil was booming. So I didnt really care if I got into medicine again. But i really just had to take the exams and go through the whole application process as due diligence. Seriously the exams were easy. I dont understand why some IMGs say it is too difficult. When I took the exams I was about 13 to 14 years post graduating med school.
Anyway CaRMs came and I did NOT match. I told my manager at Scott Land that I didnt get it and was ready to commit to Land Admin. I had a nice pay rise and promotion.
A week later I get an email from the Residency program they asked me to call them. I did. They said that someone had pulled out of the program and I was next on the list and asked if I wanted the spot. Man when someone asks like that you better say yes!
Anyway long story cut short I moved to Calgary did my 3 month externship which was a pain. Passed. Went on to finish the 2 year family med residency and cleared the combined MCCQE2 and CCFP exam (it was combined for 2015 we did the QE2 and SAMPS). Wasnt difficult really. The SAMPS are easier than UK style actual patient type exams with long and short.
So here I am been in family medicine for the past 4 years now and it has been a ride!
So IMGs out there....really......it can be done. I would say that realistically look at Family Med Pediatrics and Internal Medicine. The other specialties are touch and go. And surgical disciplines you can pretty much forget it. I was a surgical trainee back in Singapore for 4 years then spent another 4 years as a GP before moving to Canada.
Study hard for the exams and do as many questions from the Qbanks and what not. Studying is one thing but you need to do questions. And for the clinicals practice with someone. I did it with my daughter. I gave her the marking sheets and she would mark me for the NACOSCE.
I do recommend that you find a job and work and earn a living. Dont be stubborn and have these ideas that other jobs are beneath you and that you are a doctor and what not. If you go to ghe residency interviews with your confidence shot because you have been jobless for a few years and stressed about finances it is going to show. Interview technique is paramount. And the best way to hone it is to go for all those job interviews you will need to get that first job.
Oh and of course you really need luck. I was darn lucky I will admit.
I am not sure what to make of observorships. I have heard from preceptors that observorships are useless. But then every IMG who matched that I know did some observorships in some way or another. Something about needing Canadian doctors as references?
I wish each and every one of you all the best and hope you do find success in getting back into medicine in Canada.
Financially it is very good and stable. I dont really enjoy medicine but I don't regret going back. Especially on hindsight. 2015 was when the oil patch crashed. So it was good I had become a doctor once again but in Canada.
Cheers!
@canuck78 are you a doctor too? IMG? Or CMG? CCFP? Retired?
a few more questions if you can answer
1. there is a gap of practice for almost more than three years now. and I am sure it will take another one year to be eligible to apply for residency program or in provinces. do gap in practice matters. and if matters how much it matters. is there any chance that i could get residency in anesthesia/critical care? or GP where ever in Canada. no matter even in Yukon or northwest territory. if I pass NACOSCE but not MCCQE2
2. I don't have basic training in surgery. ie no house job in surgery. I did a whole one year in medicine and then worked in anesthesiology and surgical ICU. I have a diploma in anesthesiology and have experience in critical care, ICU and emergency medicine. I am 49 years old and still, I would be eligible to apply for residency if all goes well I will be 50.
currently, I m doing BSc nursing and in the fifth semester. at the same time doing work in security in three different companies to earn . plus working on my NACOSCE PLAN. but i find difficulty in finding NAC OSCE material. is there any place where i can find guidance but witoht spending much money. though in ontario there are many persons who are claiming to have a crash course of one week or two eeks and but they are taking thousands of dollars. that i feel not reasonable.
hoping a swift response from you
1. From what I heard gap in practice is taken into account the bigger the gap the worse. residency spots for IMGs tend to be limited to Family Medicine, Pediatrics, and Internal Medicine. You might get one or two General Surgery as well as Public Health spots sometimes but not always. Anesthesia/Critical Care is probably ZERO. You do need to either apply for one of those Practice Ready Assessment (PRA) positions. but you must have had formal Family Medicine training in a first world country. Yukon or NWT doesn't make a difference. Passing NACOSCE and MCCQE2 does not help you obtain a licence to practice if you have NOT completed a recognized residency program in Canada or Overseas. IMGs do these exams in order to be eligible to apply to CaRMS for a residency position.Thank you very much indeed. what feedback I badly need. :
a few more questions if you can answer
1. there is a gap of practice for almost more than three years now. and I am sure it will take another one year to be eligible to apply for residency program or in provinces. do gap in practice matters. and if matters how much it matters. is there any chance that i could get residency in anesthesia/critical care? or GP where ever in Canada. no matter even in Yukon or northwest territory. if I pass NACOSCE but not MCCQE2
2. I don't have basic training in surgery. ie no house job in surgery. I did a whole one year in medicine and then worked in anesthesiology and surgical ICU. I have a diploma in anesthesiology and have experience in critical care, ICU and emergency medicine. I am 49 years old and still, I would be eligible to apply for residency if all goes well I will be 50.
currently, I m doing BSc nursing and in the fifth semester. at the same time doing work in security in three different companies to earn . plus working on my NACOSCE PLAN. but i find difficulty in finding NAC OSCE material. is there any place where i can find guidance but witoht spending much money. though in ontario there are many persons who are claiming to have a crash course of one week or two eeks and but they are taking thousands of dollars. that i feel not reasonable.
hoping a swift response from you
2. I used this book to study for the NACOSCE.
https://www.amazon.ca/NAC-OSCE-Comprehensive-Review-Canadaprep/dp/146646416X/ref=asc_df_146646416X/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=292996653804&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5216113479050081676&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001330&hvtargid=pla-471112270476&psc=1
Of course you do need to Study Toronto Notes as well. But you should be good with just these two books. Toronto Notes is A LOT of information. If you can memorize 90% of what is in it, you will be amazing!
For the MMI I used this book
https://www.amazon.ca/Doing-Right-Practical-Trainees-Physicians/dp/0195428412
the key to the MMI is understanding the ethical concepts of autonomy, beneficence, non maleficence, justice, fiduciary duty, and then apply these in an analysis to the case that you have been given and explain your decisions supported by these principles.
Honestly at 49, you might be a bit too old. And if you have never practiced as a family doctor ever before it will be hard.
Find 260K on average very high for NS and Quebec but there are significant expenses. Perhaps they recently got an increase. All depends on expenses. If you are a small practice admin costs can be pretty high. If they are in their own practice your expenses could be pretty high. Rent, admin, insurance, etc. all add up. Maybe I should say 120-150K if you eliminate Ontario and Alberta the pay rate goes down a lot for all physician pay..Wow that's sad. Do you have any links to that information?
I found this
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/family-doctors-health-care-the-search-pay-models-1.4520132
It puts Nova Scotia family doctors at the bottom with an average of $259,368. Is their cost sharing 50/50?
For Quebec it is $284,952.
For Ontario it is $363,879
I find it hard to say that MOST GPs in Canada only earn $120k a year.
You were the one who said you got lucky. No offence but many of the IMGs with experience are very accomplished in their own countries. I am not doubting you were a good candidate. There are some stories where people end up licensed as a GP in 5 years from arrival but would not say that is the norm so don’t want others to get the wrong impression. It also got harder to match because overall enrolment in Canadian medical schools increased. If anything the number of residency spots may have been cut slightly. Canadian IMGs are also fighting for priority over other IMGs. I am sure there is already some favouritism when it comes to the Canadian IMG applicant’s especially if IMGs have family in smaller Canadian communities and want to return and settle there. Still believe that Canada is not the ideal place for IMGs if there is no need to settle in Canada. There are other countries where you will be guaranteed a job if you can pass the licensing exams.You are a cold sister.
Come on. Give me some credit.
Yes I got lucky. But I was quite surprised that I even ranked 11th considering I had zero observorships.
Would I have matched if I applied again the following year?
Anyway it is all history. At least I am honest about how I matched. I hope it gives IMGs hope.
Miracles do happen. And luck can fall your way. But you do need to have positioned yourself at the right place and right time.