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Planning to take RISK of sponsoring my kid when RO not fully met

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,182
Hi grv,

My situation was kind of similar to yours. We moved to Canada from USA in 2017 . Our PR card were about to expire. My US born son did not have Canadian PR. At Port of entry ,we told visa officer honestly that we never lived in Canada. The reason was my health issues. I had all the records with me . But he said he do not want to see them.we imported all our home stuff to Canada using moving company. I showed him all the documents. At that point he give temp visitor Visa forf6 monthsor my son with no restrictions so that he can study and have medical. We were not reported.after comingto Canada we contacted few lawyers so that we can sponser our son. Obviously they said yes. Honestly all lawyers are thief's. They just want to make money. And we sponsered. All was going smoothly. My son's medical was done. Suddenly we received letter from immigration asking residency questionnaire. I was pregnant at that point. I was so much stressed that my baby came early. Same week we had deadline to submit all supporting documents. 2 days after my delivery we were going from one lawyer office to another to find a solution. But all were Straigt forward telling us that we gonna get removal orders soon. We managed to get extension for 4 months to submit our documents. And did research on my own. We hired a lawyer too but it was waste of money. Fortunately me and my husband were doing jobs in well established companies in Canada. We purchased our house as well. My son was attending school. I had all reports of medical reasons. My daughter was Canadian born. Got lots of support letters . Did lot of charitable work in big organizations. Finally after two months of submitting our documents we got PR card for my son. After that lawyer was insisting us to apply for our PR. But we never did as we waiting for our days to complete.now we completed our days. I just want to know is there any specific documents we should send so that we can get our PR ASAP because we need to travel to our home country in March because my father in law is having knee surgery scheduled . Nobody is there to take care of him. Experts please respond. I am writing the whole story so that people should not fall in trap of lawyers.i hired a lawyer who was very popular because he was immigration judge at one point. But of no use. All documents all.letters everything I perpared myself. He just submitted on his behalf. Also I went through the text of all immigration appeals from 2014 to 2017. Only 10 percent of appeals are approved. Remaining got rejected. Lawyers just push to appeal because they make lot of money from it.

Experts please help for urgent PR renewal process based on our situation .
I am NO expert. Anyone purporting to be an expert here is most likely NOT an expert either, or at the least should NOT be trusted to be an expert.

No one here can provide more expertise than a qualified licensed immigration lawyer. (Thus, if the expertise of a qualified lawyer is not good enough for you, you are NOT going to be satisfied with what anyone can provide here.)

You do not need a valid PR card to travel to your home country.

Of course traveling abroad without a valid PR card can be risky, and will typically require obtaining a PR Travel Document for the return to Canada. Depending on which visa office is involved in making the application for a PR TD, that can pose logistical issues, an uncertain or lengthy timeline, and depending on the facts it may involve some risk the visa office denies issuing a PR TD.

BUT nonetheless, a PR who is in compliance with PR Residency Obligations can travel abroad and then should be able to obtain a PR TD for the return trip to Canada.


Urgent PR Card Process:

In the meantime, the process for requesting urgent processing of a PR card application is clearly stated at the IRCC website, addressed in the same group of web pages where information about applying for a PR card is found. It is NOT complicated. It is, however, fairly easy to anticipate your situation might preclude urgent or expedited processing (PRs who have been outside Canada more than in Canada, during the previous five years, tend get bogged down in non-routine processing, and will typically not be given urgent processing, at least not until later in the process).

There is NO harm in making the request, and perhaps given the process you have already gone through in sponsoring your child, IRCC might indeed expedite the application and issue a new PR card on an urgent basis. The instructions are easy to find and should be fairly easy to follow.

Relevant IRCC information:

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/new-immigrants/pr-card.html

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/new-immigrants/pr-card/apply-renew-replace/urgent.html

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/new-immigrants/pr-travel-document.html


Some Further Observations:

As already noted, no one here can provide more expertise than a qualified licensed immigration lawyer. It is NOT true that "all lawyers are thief's" or thieves. It is NOT true that "Lawyers just push to appeal because they make lot of money from it."

I am sorry you have had a bad experience with the lawyers you dealt with. With the usual exceptions, recognizing that not all lawyers are created equal or are equally skilled, generally lawyers can help a lot to make the best of the situation. They do not perform miracles. They cannot change the facts. They cannot change what the law requires. No more than a doctor can control a person's medical condition. But like doctors they can diagnose problems, prescribe the therapies or treatment most likely to help, and offer a prognosis. And lawyers can stand before a tribunal or authority as a representative of the client, employing their expertise and experience to better make the case . . . which, nonetheless, is limited to the facts of the case.

If you have read all decisions in immigration appeals for a three year span, you should be able to handle most of these transactions yourself. But if indeed you did this you should have readily recognized that the outcome of appeals is not a card game, coin toss, or any other game of chance, but is fact-based, criteria driven.

I personally do not know the percentage of outcomes in immigration appeals. I am personally acquainted with enough appeals to know that the vast majority are related to refugee or protected person applications, and NOT about the obligations of Permanent Residents. My strong sense is that more than ten percent of Residency Obligation related appeals are approved by the IAD, but almost exclusively for H&C reasons. Only a relatively cursory review of the facts in cases involving PRs, and the Residency Obligation, is necessary to recognize that in all but a very few cases the decision being appealed was CLEARLY VALID IN LAW.

Again, lawyers cannot change the facts. In the overwhelming majority of the cases, the determination that the PR was in breach of the PR RO, whether made by a Minister's Delegate (attendant PoE Report for example) or Visa Officer abroad (denying a PR TD application), is clearly CORRECT. Or, as the IAD states in the appeal, "valid in law." That is, as a matter of fact the PR was absent from Canada for more than 1095 days within the preceding five years (or since landing for PRs still within the first five years of their landing).

Thus, even if the IAD approves only 10% of PR RO appeals, that means many, many cases are won even though the PR was clearly in breach of the PR RO and thus inadmissible. (Noting, again, however, even though I am not certain my sense is that more than 10% are approved. Also noting, however, that not all those approved involve a lawyer on behalf of the PR. IAD appeals are often prosecuted without a lawyer representing the PR. Foolish in my view, but the procedure itself is not that complicated, not at all as difficult as trying to take a Mandamus action to a Federal Court for example.)

Many if not a majority of appeals in PR RO cases are essentially acts of desperation. The PR knows he or she has breached the PR RO. Knows he or she is inadmissible and that an order terminating PR status is VALID in LAW. The appeal is their only chance to save their status. They appeal hoping that H&C reasons are sufficient to persuade the tribunal (the IAD panel) they deserve a chance to keep their status. Most of these cases are a long shot. A very long shot. Even the best H&C cases can be and usually are tricky, with only a few exceptions (minors removed by parents tend to have a strong case so long as they timely make the effort to return to Canada after emancipation). Lawyers tend to be far better identifying and arguing H&C reasons than individual PRs. But again they cannot change the facts or law. And the outcome of these cases is largely dictated by the facts and the law.

There are good reasons, after all, why experienced participants here emphasize, again and again, that notwithstanding how the 2/5 rule will allow a PR to be abroad for virtually three years, staying abroad anywhere near so long is risky and asking for problems.

In the meantime, anyone who has gotten themselves into a jam regarding the PR RO can usually benefit from the advice and assistance of a qualified lawyer. It is expensive. I agree that it tends to cost more than it should. And one still needs to be their own personal best advocate, just like when dealing with doctors. And there are no miracles in a lawyer's brief case. BUT for those who can afford it, lawyers can improve the odds.
 

leemegan

Member
Aug 9, 2017
19
0
Ok, so here is the final update.
As specified earlier, we (parents) got our PR cards renewed after staying put for 2 years at a stretch. No hiccups in getting PR cards renewed, followed the normal procedure of renewing the pr cards.

Now, we needed to sponsor our child who was born outside Canada and we brought her on TRV, based on my discussion with fellow members here, n my lawyer, we decided not to file for TRV extension nor did we apply for sponsorship until we got our PR cards renewed.

Applied for sponsorship in July 2018, specified truth in the cover letter that we were waiting on our PR cards renewed before we sponsor our child (i think being honest worked if you don't have anything to hide). Went out of Canada in October 2018 to visit my home country while the sponsorship was in process. In Dec 2018 we received the COPR & ppt stamped :) so yes, By God's grace, everything worked out. The sponsorship process was normal, submitted all the required docs, nothing more n nothing less and just let it take its own course.
Hope it helps for those in similar boat.
Once again big thanks to the forum members for helping out here..
Just wonder from the day your kid overstayed to the day he got the PR card, how did he go to school? Need to apply study permit like international student?
 

realmj

Star Member
Jun 10, 2017
92
10
Just wonder from the day your kid overstayed to the day he got the PR card, how did he go to school? Need to apply study permit like international student?
If the kids is in Kindergarten in Ontario, they don't need study permit to enroll and registration. Just show parent's PR status is enough.
 

leemegan

Member
Aug 9, 2017
19
0
It actually depends on the school board. Varies throughout Ontario and Canada.
I just came across a website saying that under A30(2), Minor children under 18 already in Canada are authorized to study without a study permit if one of their parents (biological or adoptive) is a Canadian citizen or permanent resident. Is that true?

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/temporary-residents/study-permits/guidelines-on-minor-children.html
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,589
13,521
I just came across a website saying that under A30(2), Minor children under 18 already in Canada are authorized to study without a study permit if one of their parents (biological or adoptive) is a Canadian citizen or permanent resident. Is that true?

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/temporary-residents/study-permits/guidelines-on-minor-children.html
You would likely have to show a valid PR card which it sounds like you don’t have. It varies from school board to school board what they will accept. Have you entered Canada without being reported?
 

leemegan

Member
Aug 9, 2017
19
0
You would likely have to show a valid PR card which it sounds like you don’t have. It varies from school board to school board what they will accept. Have you entered Canada without being reported?
The officer at border told me he would not report me this time after I showed him my local employment letter and explained to him that I am not leaving this time.

The Toronto school district told me my kid would be considered as international student and pay international student fee, it is ok to me. But even they are not quite sure whether my kid needs to apply for a study permit after I showed them this website. I am just afraid the application of study permit for my kid will trigger the investigation of my PR status.
 

leemegan

Member
Aug 9, 2017
19
0
You would likely have to show a valid PR card which it sounds like you don’t have. It varies from school board to school board what they will accept. Have you entered Canada without being reported?
What about some people who are staying in Canada for decades and never applied a PR card for travel?
 

realmj

Star Member
Jun 10, 2017
92
10
The officer at border told me he would not report me this time after I showed him my local employment letter and explained to him that I am not leaving this time.

The Toronto school district told me my kid would be considered as international student and pay international student fee, it is ok to me. But even they are not quite sure whether my kid needs to apply for a study permit after I showed them this website. I am just afraid the application of study permit for my kid will trigger the investigation of my PR status.
According to my experience, it's really up to which school you want to enroll.
I used to try enroll into one high ranking school in TDSB, but they were kinda of mean to us and insisted to ask me show them my valid PR card, or show the CIC recognized receipt of my son's family sponsor application. both are not available at that moment because i was not satisfy RO. Then I tried another school which is not so "famous", the staff in there were so warmly welcomed us, and even didn't gave a glance on my expired PR card, they told us every kids in the neighborhood is eligible to enroll in KG-Grade 5 in their school not matter what status the kid possessing --- no study permit or fees needed.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,589
13,521
According to my experience, it's really up to which school you want to enroll.
I used to try enroll into one high ranking school in TDSB, but they were kinda of mean to us and insisted to ask me show them my valid PR card, or show the CIC recognized receipt of my son's family sponsor application. both are not available at that moment because i was not satisfy RO. Then I tried another school which is not so "famous", the staff in there were so warmly welcomed us, and even didn't gave a glance on my expired PR card, they told us every kids in the neighborhood is eligible to enroll in KG-Grade 5 in their school not matter what status the kid possessing --- no study permit or fees needed.
Don’t really think it is “mean” to make sure people can show valid residency papers to enrol their children in school as domestic students.
 

realmj

Star Member
Jun 10, 2017
92
10
Don’t really think it is “mean” to make sure people can show valid residency papers to enroll their children in school as domestic students.
i shown them the landing paper indeed, but they just want to see PR card and didn't explained why...
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,589
13,521
i shown them the landing paper indeed, but they just want to see PR card and didn't explained why...
To make sure you still have PR status. You could have lost your PR status and still have your landing document. It looks pretty suspicious when you show a landing document from the 90s and not a even an expired PR card.
 

Copingwithlife

VIP Member
Jul 29, 2018
4,481
2,255
Earth
i shown them the landing paper indeed, but they just want to see PR card and didn't explained why...
Maybe it’s because it’s not uncommon for people to show up with only their landing papers and nothing else and wanting to place their kids in public school, without actually having lived in the province. Maybe that’s it , and now they want proof , which isn’t really that much to ask , don’t yah think ?
 

realmj

Star Member
Jun 10, 2017
92
10
Maybe it’s because it’s not uncommon for people to show up with only their landing papers and nothing else and wanting to place their kids in public school, without actually having lived in the province. Maybe that’s it , and now they want proof , which isn’t really that much to ask , don’t yah think ?
I shown them local residency proof file as well, everything got prepared but only my PR card was invalid for 3 months. Imagine parents come to school to do registration and their PR card just expired in June 2019. should them be rejected?