will citizenship rule change in 2020?

[fr72]

What was the need to start this thread? How is this helping anyone?

Helps me a lot. Thanks to @dpenabill 's detailed posts, I am learning about the various ways in which Cons can try to screw with immigrants who look like me. Its better to have that info than to remain ignorant.

 

[spyfy]

The world has changed. Maybe you don't see it because I am guessing you are German? Some of us dont belong to privileged classes. Back in 2015, people laughed at me when I said Trump would be president and white nationalism is back. But I am well aware of the intentions of the hardcore base of right wing parties across the western world. Every deranged comment I read in alt-right websites comes out of the mouth of the US administration the next day. It's not hard to imagine the same in Canada.

I agree that this xenophobia is not the view of the majority, but in Canada only 30% votes are enough to get a majority with a split left. Conservatives now control most provinces. Together with a federal government, they will be in a position to change the Charter. Between Doug Ford using the Notwithstanding clause and the Quebec govt cracking down on minorities, its pretty clear that the Cons will go to any lengths to ram through their ideologies.

I come from a country where checks and balances can be easily subverted by a tyrannical government. I used to think that this cant happen in mature democracies, but that illusion has been shattered since 2016.

This isn't about privileged classes or where I'm from. No matter where I'm from, of course I see that the political climate has changed, I don't live under a rock

Still, keep in mind that the US is a very special kind of place, in particular with regards to their political system. It is hard to draw parallels to other countries. There are several countries in Europe where governments are run and/or supported by populists, yet they are not going as crazy as trump is. Doug Ford is doing crazy things, but still he doesn't dare doing some of the things Trump does, mostly thanks to the fact that in the end he still needs the constant support of his parliamentary caucus. In fact journalists from different angles of the spectrum have commented on the Ford government and observed that Doug Ford actually reacts to public backlash, e.g. "floats" ideas and then takes them back or scales them down. He is still doing crazy stupid things, no doubt. He is still hurting people, directly and indirectly. But Ontario still is not even close to the doomsday scenario that some people seem to describe. There is a little bit of hysteria and I sometimes get the feeling that, pardon my language, people kind of get off on doomsday scenarios.

That's mostly what I'm trying to convey: The prospects aren't rosy, but still no one is helped if we blow things out of proportion. Otherwise, we might run out of vocabulary once things ACTUALLY go down.

 

[fr72]

As I previously posted, the idea that the Federal Courts would allow, let alone validate, an interpretation which in effect amounted to the revocation of citizenship because a naturalized citizen moved abroad is FAR-FETCHED.

No pass to anyone intended or necessary. See post by @spyfy regarding Canada being a rule of law country.

Your outline conflates actual fraud with the fear-mongering rhetoric that the intent-to-reside provision could be employed to, in effect, punish naturalized citizens who move abroad after becoming a citizen. If there is actual evidence the applicant misrepresented their intention, DUH!, that is fraud. And grounds for revoking citizenship.

That said, here too there is NO doubt, the Canadian courts would demand definitive proof of actual fraud . . . but sure, an application to another country in which the individual overtly expressed an intention to move to that country once he or she became a Canadian citizen, sure, that would be actual proof. Again, DUH!

Actual fraud has always been, and still is, a grounds for revoking a grant of naturalized citizenship.

Note this issue was discussed ad nauseam in this and other forums . . . over the course of YEARS, going back to early 2014. It was rare for anyone to change their views about it. I addressed this issue, myself, many many times and in much depth, with lots and lots of citations to principles articulated by not just the Federal Courts but the Supreme Court of Canada. For what that was worth. Again, I have no doubts about this and that has nothing to do with giving anyone a pass, least of all the Conservatives who I do NOT trust at all . . . but whose power is restrained by the rule of law . . . at least for now . . . but sure, I acknowledge there are ominous clouds looming on the horizon . . . and I too was among an isolated, and at the time mocked minority, who even in the summer of 2015 was warning about the potential for Donald Trump to actually be nominated, and if nominated possibly POTUS . . . I long ago adopted the skepticism and cynicism expressed by gonzo journalist Hunter Thompson, especially views he expressed in his book about politics Better Than Sex. So sure, I have much fear about the future. Given my age, though, it is not likely I will get to see all that much of it.

I am several steps ahead of you in the cynic department. You say that a visa application is enough proof of no intent to reside. What about a job interview abroad? Or an email? Or a chat to a friend about how nice it would be to work somewhere? This goes into thought policing territory and I wont put it past a tyrannical govt. It's a slippery slope.

Intent to reside is very vague and a powerful tool for a tyrannical govt. That the courts will always be impartial enough to stop its abuse is not reassuring to me.

 

[Seym]

A racist conservative govt going after coloured immigrants. Its general enough for me.

Far fetched, but fair enough.
I do understand your position though... I also come from what DT would call a "shithole country".

 

[spyfy]

I am several steps ahead of you in the cynic department. You say that a visa application is enough proof of no intent to reside. What about a job interview abroad? Or an email? Or a chat to a friend about how nice it would be to work somewhere? This goes into thought policing territory and I wont put it past a tyrannical govt. It's a slippery slope.

Intent to reside is very vague and a powerful tool for a tyrannical govt. That the courts will always be impartial enough to stop its abuse is not reassuring to me.

A tyrannical government is defined to be "A government exercising power in a cruel or arbitrary way" (copy-pasted from the oxford dictionary). So if you assume that Canada will, at some point, have a tyrannical government that will do what you describe above, this is of course true but also trivial. Because if you say "a tyrannical government will do [insert something cruel and arbitrary here]" you are, literally, by the definition of the word "tyrannical" saying "a government exercising power in a cruel or arbitrary way will do cruel and arbitrary things".

So if your presumption is that Canada will end up having a tyrannical government, then yes, indeed, anything can happen. They might even round up babies and drown them in lake Ontario...

I still don't see the point in the "if one day we have a tyrannical government, then..." scenario. Of course anything could happen once we have a tyrannical government (see definition). The actual discussion to have is if we will have one anytime soon or not.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/tyrannical

 

[fr72]

This isn't about privileged classes or where I'm from. No matter where I'm from, of course I see that the political climate has changed, I don't live under a rock

Still, keep in mind that the US is a very special kind of place, in particular with regards to their political system. It is hard to draw parallels to other countries. There are several countries in Europe where governments are run and/or supported by populists, yet they are not going as crazy as trump is. Doug Ford is doing crazy things, but still he doesn't dare doing some of the things Trump does, mostly thanks to the fact that in the end he still needs the constant support of his parliamentary caucus. In fact journalists from different angles of the spectrum have commented on the Ford government and observed that Doug Ford actually reacts to public backlash, e.g. "floats" ideas and then takes them back or scales them down. He is still doing crazy stupid things, no doubt. He is still hurting people, directly and indirectly. But Ontario still is not even close to the doomsday scenario that some people seem to describe. There is a little bit of hysteria and I sometimes get the feeling that, pardon my language, people kind of get off on doomsday scenarios.

That's mostly what I'm trying to convey: The prospects aren't rosy, but still no one is helped if we blow things out of proportion. Otherwise, we might run out of vocabulary once things ACTUALLY go down.

I am not predicting a large scale doomsday scenario either. Even under Trump, the vast majority of Americans are doing very well. Governments are smart nowadays, they know how to do maximum damage without creating a spectacle. If tomorrow, a conservative government starts delaying and denying citizenship applications of Non European immigrants, it wont make global news. They will also do it in a way such that one can always point to a European who got denied or an Asian who got approved and say - see? not racist.

As for Ford, he is only a provincial leader. The damage he can do is limited. He is doing it nevertheless, incrementally, just slow enough to avoid alarm.

 

[fr72]

A tyrannical government is defined to be "A government exercising power in a cruel or arbitrary way" (copy-pasted from the oxford dictionary). So if you assume that Canada will, at some point, have a tyrannical government that will do what you describe above, this is of course true but also trivial. Because if you say "a tyrannical government will do [insert something cruel and arbitrary here]" you are, literally, by the definition of the word "tyrannical" saying "a government exercising power in a cruel or arbitrary way will do cruel and arbitrary things".

So if your presumption is that Canada will end up having a tyrannical government, then yes, indeed, anything can happen. They might even round up babies and drown them in lake Ontario...

I still don't see the point in the "if one day we have a tyrannical government, then..." scenario. Of course anything could happen once we have a tyrannical government (see definition). The actual discussion to have is if we will have one anytime soon or not.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/tyrannical

See my other post. Governments, even tyrannical ones, are smart. They wont round up babies and drown them. But they will divert funds from hospitals, encourage anti-vaxxers and create the same final result.

 

[spyfy]

If tomorrow, a conservative government starts delaying and denying citizenship applications of Non European immigrants, it wont make global news.

I do NOT believe a second that this wouldn't make global news. Canada's immigration system is one of the most hotly cited and talked about immigration systems in the world. Even the Harper government's revocation-for-terrorist-bill made it into many European newspapers.

As for Ford, he is only a provincial leader. The damage he can do is limited. He is doing it nevertheless, incrementally, just slow enough to avoid alarm.

Yes, but still he is doing much less than he could theoretically, even within the realm of his legal powers, do.

 

[spyfy]

See my other post. Governments, even tyrannical ones, are smart. They wont round up babies and drown them. But they will divert funds from hospitals, encourage anti-vaxxers and create the same final result.

The "drowning babies" was of course just a hyperbole and not meant literally
But yes, as I said, if you assume that a specific country has a tyrannical government, then bad things will happen, strategically or not. But that's really just saying "bad guys will do bad things". Despite all the stuff "even Canadian politics" is going through these days, I consider Canada to be lightyears away from a tyrannical government. But this is arguably something that is hard to debate and we both have to accept that we each think otherwise.

 

[spyfy]

Sorry I have to head out. Just wanted to say that despite our disagreements, I actually enjoyed talking about this. You definitely gave me something to think about!

 

[fr72]

The "drowning babies" was of course just a hyperbole and not meant literally
But yes, as I said, if you assume that a specific country has a tyrannical government, then bad things will happen, strategically or not. But that's really just saying "bad guys will do bad things". Despite all the stuff "even Canadian politics" is going through these days, I consider Canada to be lightyears away from a tyrannical government. But this is arguably something that is hard to debate and we both have to accept that we each think otherwise.

I agree that bas guys will do bad things, no matter what. The least we can do is recognize that they can do much more damage with sharp tools like C-24. I fear that most immigrants, even the ones from Asia/Africa, have forgotten what a sharp tool C-24 was and are now willing to vote conservative to get that 1% tax cut, or their hatred of refugees, etc.

 

[spyfy]

I fear that most immigrants, even the ones from Asia/Africa, have forgotten what a sharp tool C-24 was and are now willing to vote conservative to get that 1% tax cut, or their hatred of refugees, etc.

This observation/prediction is definitely something we agree on.

 

[Jayson]

There aren't many places to vent because, despite all the great things about Canadian commons and customs, discussing politics is kind of a taboo. This forum right here is one of the small number of places where a lot of people who care about Canadian immigration come together and are willing to discuss it.

While I might not agree with many things that @fr72 says, I understand why he/she wants to voice their concerns somewhere. Similarly I am voicing mine. Because there aren't many places where you can.

It’s just not needed my friend! Not here, not now; atleast! @fr72- PLEASE Keep politics out and leave it where it belongs! Rules and policies will always change, tomorrow and day after. So what? DON’T create fear and divide people! There are enough nations out there being destroyed due to nuisance brought upon them by people who talked fear, lived fear and spread it!

 

[Jayson]

I agree that bas guys will do bad things, no matter what. The least we can do is recognize that they can do much more damage with sharp tools like C-24. I fear that most immigrants, even the ones from Asia/Africa, have forgotten what a sharp tool C-24 was and are now willing to vote conservative to get that 1% tax cut, or their hatred of refugees, etc.

It’s not hatred! It’s the ABUSE that’s been talked about!

 

[21Goose]

I'm going to make one observation.

One of the best things about Canada was demonstrated in this very thread - the idea that people can have different views, can discuss them in a reasonable manner, and learn from each other while still agreeing to disagree.

Before I moved to Canada, I spent a lot of time in various Canadian and US forums (here, reddit, a bunch of other places), and there was a stark contrast in how Canadians disagree as compared to how Americans disagree.

The US is very polarized - especially now, of course, but also going back decades. Politics has a tribal/sport mentality - you're on my team, or you're the enemy. And if you're the enemy, practically anything I can do to crush you is acceptable. Likewise, if you're on my team, nothing you do will prevent me from having your back.

A lot of Americans (not all, of course, but one has to generalize) see the world in black and white and don't really like to acknowledge nuance or shades of gray. Zero-sum, I win and you lose. Add to this the overt patriotism/nationalism, chest-thumping, "'Murica the Greatest", national anthem + military displays at even minor sporting events, and you end up with people essentially subsuming their identity into symbols, and being willing to fight to the death (literally, sometimes) to protect those symbols from a perceived slight.

I've only been in Canada for ~2 years, but I have seen a stark difference here. There's a greater sense of community, and it's less every-man-for-himself when it comes to policy.

Lots of great things about the US, but I certainly prefer the more Canadian way which has room for different opinions and respect for other people's views.