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Chances of PR Card renewal rejection

fotkifolkslove

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Dec 7, 2011
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Hi friends,

I applied for pr card renewal and the case has gone to secondary review asking some entry exit and passport stamps which I already provided. I have stayed in Canada for 780 days which is more than the required time.

My only question is how is IRCC going to find out I really stayed for that time and do they reject the card renewal even I have stayed and maintained residency? How do they investigate?

I have already provided docs from my side and now I cannot provide anything more to prove. Now it's time for IRCC to investigate. how do they figure out my stay? do they check airlines etc? Or do they solely rely on our docs and if they aren't satisfied with our docs they just reject the card renewal? is it so? how does it work? The pr card renewal and secondary review story is driving me nuts?
 
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Buletruck

VIP Member
May 18, 2015
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They can check entry/exit records through CBSA and US immigration, along with other countries immigration and transport company manifests. But ultimately, it's entirely up to you to prove you were in Canada on the dates you stated. If they have any doubt about specific dates or time frames, it's your obligation to provide the evidence to support your claim. If you can't or there is any doubt, they disregard the date(s) in question and assume you were not in Canada.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
Some additional observations; the short version:

While technically compliance with the PR RO and eligibility for a new PR card depend on the facts as of the date the application is made, there can be a big difference in how it goes depending on whether the PR is settled and living in Canada, or the PR is living abroad while the PRC application is being processed. That is, if the PR who has a PRC application in SR is staying abroad in the meantime, that can dramatically increase the risks.



The longer explanation:

While how it goes in Secondary Review is, foremost, based on the facts as indicated by the evidence, a KEY factor otherwise can be whether or not the PR is living in Canada in the meantime, staying here while the PR card application is pending. So far as reporting in this forum goes, it appears the vast majority of SR'd PRC applications result in a new PRC being issued and delivered. The problem, for most, is how long that takes.

In particular, if the PR is settled in Canada, staying in Canada, while the PRC application is in SR, and the PR has honestly and accurately provided information to IRCC, and the PR was in Canada at least 730 days within the preceding five years, GENERALLY THERE IS LITTLE OR NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.

For the most part, it is NOT as if IRCC is looking for technical reasons to terminate a PR's status. IRCC is not engaged in a GOTCHA game. If a PR appears to be playing by the rules and is settled in Canada, there may be some factors triggering elevated scrutiny, but IRCC is mostly concerned with stopping fraud or abuse of the system, not with finding reasons to terminate the status of a PR actually settled and living in Canada.

So sure, when a PR has been cutting-it-close, however, that is what might be called a RISK INDICATOR, a red flag triggering elevated scrutiny. But so long as there is nothing to suggest the PR has been involved in making misrepresentations, and the PR is settled and living in Canada, the outcome of that elevated scrutiny is easy to predict: NO PROBLEM.

At the other end of the spectrum: If the PR is not settled in Canada, NOT staying in Canada while the PRC application is in SR, and the PR was cutting-it-close, especially if cutting real close (like having been in Canada less than 800 days in the preceding five years), the prospects of a problem, the risks, are dramatically elevated. These risks are not at all easily quantified. The underlying facts matter, of course, but as @Buletruck observes, the PR has the burden of proving facts that show compliance with the PR Residency Obligation.

This is not to say that living abroad while the PRC application is in SR is necessarily a problem. More than a few PRs abroad have reported having their PR card issued and mailed to an address in Canada, or issued and the PR is able to go to Canada and the respective office to obtain the new PRC. BUT there is little comparison between the very low risks for the PR who is settled and remaining in Canada, and the substantially higher risks for the PR living abroad. For the latter it would be prudent to do some homework and more thoroughly examine and evaluate the circumstances, and make informed decisions taking into account personal priorities.
 
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Ninio

Full Member
Oct 31, 2018
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What are the exceptions if I only stayed 630 days in Canada during the 5 year period , if I work for a Canadian company and I am the purchase manager for that company overseas, would the days outside Canada be counted as inside for my residency, my wife is Canadian, married together since 2001 and have 2 children both Canadians 16 and 13 years,
 

Buletruck

VIP Member
May 18, 2015
6,878
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If you're accompanying your Canadian citizen wife then you're exempt from the 730 requirement
Unfortunately, there are recent reports where renewals based on accompanying a Canadian citizen are being refused based on “who accompanied whom” outside of Canada. I wouldn’t count on that as a certainty anymore. It would also depend on if you were hired by the Canadian company while in Canada and transferred for a set duration and have a job waiting for you in Canada with the same company on your return. Position title is irrelevant.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
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I applied for PR renewal and my application was received on the 30th of April 2018, on August 15 I received an e-mail asking me to provide them with entry exit record and colored photocopy of my passports used the last 5 years since I became a permanent resident.

I am working for a Canadian company since September 2014 and I am the purchase manager for that company responsible for purchasing from China and Congo since I regularly make business with many companies there since 2005 and searching for new customers and markets in the middle east and lately Nice France, so you can call me a busy person trying to pursue all the chances out there in order to maintain my standard life.

With such kind of responsibility and job, I have lots of travels during the year and I have to keep the company I work for updated with all the latest models and thus, keeping new markets updated with my company products as well.

So in the last 5 years, I managed to stay 600 days in Canada which as I've been told that the 730 days needed to maintain my residency, will be added since my travels are for my Canadian company job overseas ( I hope that is true).

My wife is Canadian, married since 2001 and I have to children, my boy is 16 and my daughter is 13 and they are both Canadians.
What are the exceptions if I only stayed 630 days in Canada during the 5 year period , if I work for a Canadian company and I am the purchase manager for that company overseas, would the days outside Canada be counted as inside for my residency, my wife is Canadian, married together since 2001 and have 2 children both Canadians 16 and 13 years,
KEY FACTS:
(1) Are you currently located in Canada?
(2) Is your primary residence in Canada?
(3) Is your employment based in Canada and your time abroad, now, due to going abroad on more or less discreet assignments for a genuinely Canadian business?​

If the answer to ALL these is yes, my GUESS (no one here can reliably forecast individual outcomes EXCEPT when there is an obvious, unavoidable reason for a negative outcome, and even then the outcome is not certain), my guess is that you have a fair chance of this ultimately going well. BUT AS OTHERS HAVE CAUTIONED, the timeline can be significantly longer than it is for routinely processed PRC applications and, thus, if your PR card is expiring and for your job you need to travel, and thus need a valid PR card (which is quite likely, although there are alternatives, such as obtaining a PR Travel Document while abroad, or returning to Canada via land through a PoE on the Canada/U.S. border), there could be a practical problem.

If the answer to one or more of the above is NOT YES, it is still possible things will go OK. But that becomes a more difficult scenario to evaluate and would depend a lot on a number of very particular details in your situation, so it would be a lot more difficult to offer any semblance of a reasonable guess.

For example, if the answer to (1) and (2) is YES, but no for (3), AGAIN DEPENDING on a number of particular factors, there should be a fair chance you will NOT lose PR status based on H&C reasons, but of course in addition to the impact of numerous, variable factors, you would have to effectively advocate H&C reasons for keeping status, and if the application itself is denied or if in the meantime you are reported as inadmissible (for failing to comply with the PR Residency Obligations), you would need to pursue an APPEAL, for which you probably need the assistance of a LAWYER.

There are, nonetheless, many variables indicated. There are many specific facts which can have a big impact on how things go for you.

For example, if your employment is something which has been set up or arranged through a "consultant," that could suggest a range of factors particular to your case which could be problematic. I do not mean to pursue this tangent or delve into its nuances, but there are many, many cases in which consultant-arranged schemes facilitating PRs primarily employed abroad which are very much just that: SCHEMES, meaning schemes which will not work if and when IRCC discerns what it is.

In other words: there are many variables which will have significant influence in how things go for you. Your situation could be simple. Or it could be very complicated. Sorting out an individual case like this is well beyond what we can do in this forum (for one thing, this is not an appropriate venue for sharing the kind of information which is necessary to reliably evaluate the situation).

I would suggest, however, that if you have been relying on a consultant so far, especially a consultant who has set up your employment, and definitely if you have used a consultant who is NOT properly registered as an authorized consultant with IRCC, you might want to serious consider consulting with a reputable, experienced IMMIGRATION LAWYER about your situation.


FURTHER OBSERVATIONS:

As @zardoz emphasized in the other thread (source of first quote above), how things will go will depend a great deal on the particular facts in your case, depending on what the facts are as determined by IRCC.

That said, we know many of the key factors, including risk factors, and while no one here can reliably forecast the outcome in an individual's case, we can identify key indicators which can suggest whether the odds are good or the odds are NOT good.

The employed abroad by Canadian business exception/credit tends to be very tricky.

The accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse abroad exception/credit can be a LITTLE tricky for some, BUT at the very least getting the credit requires the PR to be living-together (cohabiting) abroad with the citizen spouse. Potential snags in this have been discussed at length in other topics . . . but for a PR who was living in Canada with a Canadian citizen spouse and they subsequently are living abroad together, this still appears to be a SAFE credit PRs can rely on . . . again, for time the couple are actually living together abroad.

Just the fact of being married to a Canadian does NOT qualify for credit.

THUS: If your spouse is not living abroad with you, there is NO accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse credit. Even if she accompanies you occasionally abroad, odds are those days together abroad will NOT get credit.

BUT WHAT JUMPS OUT MOST in your posts is the question: are you CURRENTLY present in Canada and, relative to your employment, primarily based in Canada? Or are you primarily located abroad (and, in effect, coming to Canada to stay with family when you can)?

If you obtained your current employment while YOU were physically present in Canada, and even though that employment requires you to go abroad often and for extended periods of time, IF YOUR position itself is primarily located in Canada and the time abroad are individual assignments abroad, there is a good chance that these trips will count, will be credited time toward PR Residency Obligation compliance, BUT ONLY IF THE EMPLOYER ALSO QUALIFIES . . .

Again, this credit is typically VERY TRICKY, and many conscientious participants here steer wide of offering opinions about this credit EXCEPT to the extent there are more or less obvious factors indicating that qualifying for the credit is NOT AT ALL LIKELY. Which, by the way, tends to characterize the majority of situations queried in this forum. A very high percentage of queries in this forum are about being employed by a Canadian business BUT it is for a position abroad rather than being employed IN CANADA (and being temporarily assigned abroad), which will more or less obviously NOT count. Another common scenario is the Canadian business which is essentially a Canadian business on paper, but the business itself is not in practice so much a Canadian business, which will often mean the employer does NOT qualify.

That is, we can rather easily identify many if not most scenarios in which the employed-abroad-by-a-Canadian-business credit is NOT available even if the PR is working abroad in the employ of an ostensibly Canadian company. It is far more difficult to recognize scenarios giving rise to confidence that the credit is actually available.

The employed-abroad-by-a-Canadian-business credit is so tricky it sometimes seems that the only PRs who could qualify for the credit are PRs with enough time in Canada to meet the PR RO without the credit, since qualifying for the credit essentially requires the PR to be BASED in Canada. Note for example, truckers, sales representatives, and airline personnel who are based in Canada but regularly travel abroad for their work (the trucker who makes regularly long-haul runs into the U.S. from a Canadian base; the sales representative whose office is in Canada but who regularly travels to clients abroad for a week or two or three at a time, or the Canada Air airline employee working international flights from a base in Canada), will typically qualify for the credit, but they will also typically be in Canada enough, in between assignments, to meet the minimum RO without the credit.

Anyway, hopefully this will help you focus on some of the more important aspects of your situation and get a better idea of your situation.

In the meantime: if you are issued a 44(1) Report, a Departure or Removal Order, or the PR card application is denied, you will need to make a timely appeal, focus on making an H&C case to justify keeping PR status, and probably obtain the assistance of a lawyer to do so. Obviously, IRCC can make decisions which could, in turn, compel you to identify your personal priorities and makes decisions about your future depending on what YOUR priorities are.
 

Ninio

Full Member
Oct 31, 2018
25
0
KEY FACTS:
(1) Are you currently located in Canada?
(2) Is your primary residence in Canada?
(3) Is your employment based in Canada and your time abroad, now, due to going abroad on more or less discreet assignments for a genuinely Canadian business?​

If the answer to ALL these is yes, my GUESS (no one here can reliably forecast individual outcomes EXCEPT when there is an obvious, unavoidable reason for a negative outcome, and even then the outcome is not certain), my guess is that you have a fair chance of this ultimately going well. BUT AS OTHERS HAVE CAUTIONED, the timeline can be significantly longer than it is for routinely processed PRC applications and, thus, if your PR card is expiring and for your job you need to travel, and thus need a valid PR card (which is quite likely, although there are alternatives, such as obtaining a PR Travel Document while abroad, or returning to Canada via land through a PoE on the Canada/U.S. border), there could be a practical problem.

If the answer to one or more of the above is NOT YES, it is still possible things will go OK. But that becomes a more difficult scenario to evaluate and would depend a lot on a number of very particular details in your situation, so it would be a lot more difficult to offer any semblance of a reasonable guess.

For example, if the answer to (1) and (2) is YES, but no for (3), AGAIN DEPENDING on a number of particular factors, there should be a fair chance you will NOT lose PR status based on H&C reasons, but of course in addition to the impact of numerous, variable factors, you would have to effectively advocate H&C reasons for keeping status, and if the application itself is denied or if in the meantime you are reported as inadmissible (for failing to comply with the PR Residency Obligations), you would need to pursue an APPEAL, for which you probably need the assistance of a LAWYER.

There are, nonetheless, many variables indicated. There are many specific facts which can have a big impact on how things go for you.

For example, if your employment is something which has been set up or arranged through a "consultant," that could suggest a range of factors particular to your case which could be problematic. I do not mean to pursue this tangent or delve into its nuances, but there are many, many cases in which consultant-arranged schemes facilitating PRs primarily employed abroad which are very much just that: SCHEMES, meaning schemes which will not work if and when IRCC discerns what it is.

In other words: there are many variables which will have significant influence in how things go for you. Your situation could be simple. Or it could be very complicated. Sorting out an individual case like this is well beyond what we can do in this forum (for one thing, this is not an appropriate venue for sharing the kind of information which is necessary to reliably evaluate the situation).

I would suggest, however, that if you have been relying on a consultant so far, especially a consultant who has set up your employment, and definitely if you have used a consultant who is NOT properly registered as an authorized consultant with IRCC, you might want to serious consider consulting with a reputable, experienced IMMIGRATION LAWYER about your situation.


FURTHER OBSERVATIONS:

As @zardoz emphasized in the other thread (source of first quote above), how things will go will depend a great deal on the particular facts in your case, depending on what the facts are as determined by IRCC.

That said, we know many of the key factors, including risk factors, and while no one here can reliably forecast the outcome in an individual's case, we can identify key indicators which can suggest whether the odds are good or the odds are NOT good.

The employed abroad by Canadian business exception/credit tends to be very tricky.

The accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse abroad exception/credit can be a LITTLE tricky for some, BUT at the very least getting the credit requires the PR to be living-together (cohabiting) abroad with the citizen spouse. Potential snags in this have been discussed at length in other topics . . . but for a PR who was living in Canada with a Canadian citizen spouse and they subsequently are living abroad together, this still appears to be a SAFE credit PRs can rely on . . . again, for time the couple are actually living together abroad.

Just the fact of being married to a Canadian does NOT qualify for credit.

THUS: If your spouse is not living abroad with you, there is NO accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse credit. Even if she accompanies you occasionally abroad, odds are those days together abroad will NOT get credit.

BUT WHAT JUMPS OUT MOST in your posts is the question: are you CURRENTLY present in Canada and, relative to your employment, primarily based in Canada? Or are you primarily located abroad (and, in effect, coming to Canada to stay with family when you can)?

If you obtained your current employment while YOU were physically present in Canada, and even though that employment requires you to go abroad often and for extended periods of time, IF YOUR position itself is primarily located in Canada and the time abroad are individual assignments abroad, there is a good chance that these trips will count, will be credited time toward PR Residency Obligation compliance, BUT ONLY IF THE EMPLOYER ALSO QUALIFIES . . .

Again, this credit is typically VERY TRICKY, and many conscientious participants here steer wide of offering opinions about this credit EXCEPT to the extent there are more or less obvious factors indicating that qualifying for the credit is NOT AT ALL LIKELY. Which, by the way, tends to characterize the majority of situations queried in this forum. A very high percentage of queries in this forum are about being employed by a Canadian business BUT it is for a position abroad rather than being employed IN CANADA (and being temporarily assigned abroad), which will more or less obviously NOT count. Another common scenario is the Canadian business which is essentially a Canadian business on paper, but the business itself is not in practice so much a Canadian business, which will often mean the employer does NOT qualify.

That is, we can rather easily identify many if not most scenarios in which the employed-abroad-by-a-Canadian-business credit is NOT available even if the PR is working abroad in the employ of an ostensibly Canadian company. It is far more difficult to recognize scenarios giving rise to confidence that the credit is actually available.

The employed-abroad-by-a-Canadian-business credit is so tricky it sometimes seems that the only PRs who could qualify for the credit are PRs with enough time in Canada to meet the PR RO without the credit, since qualifying for the credit essentially requires the PR to be BASED in Canada. Note for example, truckers, sales representatives, and airline personnel who are based in Canada but regularly travel abroad for their work (the trucker who makes regularly long-haul runs into the U.S. from a Canadian base; the sales representative whose office is in Canada but who regularly travels to clients abroad for a week or two or three at a time, or the Canada Air airline employee working international flights from a base in Canada), will typically qualify for the credit, but they will also typically be in Canada enough, in between assignments, to meet the minimum RO without the credit.

Anyway, hopefully this will help you focus on some of the more important aspects of your situation and get a better idea of your situation.

In the meantime: if you are issued a 44(1) Report, a Departure or Removal Order, or the PR card application is denied, you will need to make a timely appeal, focus on making an H&C case to justify keeping PR status, and probably obtain the assistance of a lawyer to do so. Obviously, IRCC can make decisions which could, in turn, compel you to identify your personal priorities and makes decisions about your future depending on what YOUR priorities are.
Thanks dpenabill for your time explaining and typing down all this important information,

I will start with the first questions that you asked:

1 : yes I am located in Canada
2 : my primary residence is in Canada
3 : my employment is based in Canada and my contract is with a genuine business company which has been effective since more than 25 years, and me as a former experienced trader who has been doing business between China and Congo and Lebanon since 2004, has been assigned by the Canadian company since September 2014 as their purchase manager overseas in order to start purchasing them new items from China and Congo and trying to open new markets for them in Lebanon, Dubai and lately France.

Actually, the day my PR expired was on 15 August and my days physically present in Canada until that date were 630 days and I am still here since and I guess the days since my card expired and until now might help adding some more, but as I posted before, soon I should be hitting that plane again in order to pursue my business and get what is needed for the Christmas season.

Now I am stuck in the middle and sure I will not risk losing either my job and status in Canada and sure not my Permanent residency, I applied to renew my Card on 30 April and on August 16 I received an e-mail that I need to send my entry/exit record and the colored photocopy I used since I became a permanent resident and this is what I did, and on 24 October I received another e-mail saying that the IRCC has received my documents.

So, around 180 days has passed since April 30th which is way beyond the normal processing times, the question is : should I start counting as of 24 October or what?

Thanks again for all the help
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,632
13,535
Not sure why you think your business trips will be counted towards your residency. Most are not. Was there a particular reason that you renewed early at 630 days and didn't wait until you fulfilled your RO (730 days)?
 

Ninio

Full Member
Oct 31, 2018
25
0
Not sure why you think your business trips will be counted towards your residency. Most are not. Was there a particular reason that you renewed early at 630 days and didn't wait until you fulfilled your RO (730 days)?
Hi Canuck 78,

My PR expires on August 15 and I had to renew it before that date,
 

Ninio

Full Member
Oct 31, 2018
25
0
Canuck 78,

It is not why I might think that my business trips will be counted towards my residency, and actually this is not what I was aiming for but when cic posts on their website about the excemptions I guess there is no doubt that this might help for such case like my case or else they would have deleted it :

There are several exemptions where a PR can count time spent outside Canada toward the residency obligation:

  • You are accompanying your Canadian citizen spouse or common-law partner
  • You are a child (under 19) and accompanying your Canadian citizen parent
  • You are a full-time and ongoing employee of, or under contract to, a Canadian business or the federal/provincial government (there are specific definitions of a Canadian business)
  • You are accompanying your spouse or parent who is a PR and is employed full-time by a Canadian business or the federal/provincial government
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,632
13,535
Canuck 78,

It is not why I might think that my business trips will be counted towards my residency, and actually this is not what I was aiming for but when cic posts on their website about the excemptions I guess there is no doubt that this might help for such case like my case or else they would have deleted it :

There are several exemptions where a PR can count time spent outside Canada toward the residency obligation:

  • You are accompanying your Canadian citizen spouse or common-law partner
  • You are a child (under 19) and accompanying your Canadian citizen parent
  • You are a full-time and ongoing employee of, or under contract to, a Canadian business or the federal/provincial government (there are specific definitions of a Canadian business)
  • You are accompanying your spouse or parent who is a PR and is employed full-time by a Canadian business or the federal/provincial government
Why did you submit your PR renewal in April when it didn't expire until August? You should never renew your PR until you meet the RO even if you have to live in Canada with an expired PR card. Business trips are rarely counted as part of your RO. The most likely time is if you are working for a government agency. Your job is to purchase goods overseas. You are not spending the majority of your time working in Canada and then have to work on an international project.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
Business trips are rarely counted as part of your RO.
Not sure why you think your business trips will be counted towards your residency. Most are not.
I am not sure what you mean by "Most [PR business trips abroad] are not [counted toward RO compliance]."

Whether most business trips a PR goes on abroad are in fact counted, OR ARE ENTITLED TO BE GIVEN CREDIT, are not the same thing.

It is probably easy to forecast that most PR business trips abroad are generally ENTITLED TO BE GIVEN CREDIT toward PR Residency Obligation compliance, by a big margin I would estimate, BUT since most PRs who take business trips abroad are easily IN CANADA more than enough to clearly comply with the RO, they do not need to complete the part of the form for obtaining such credit.

So it is probably true that most PR business trips abroad are NOT counted, but that is ONLY because there is no need to count them, even though it is also very likely that MOST PR business trips abroad ARE ENTITLED CREDIT toward the PR RO.




A Separate Distinction: Most queries about this credit, in this forum, tend to be about situations in which the credit is NOT available.

This is NOT because PR business trips abroad (or other types of temporary assignments to work abroad) do not qualify for the credit. Again, most will.

This is because the typical query about this credit, in this forum, is NOT really about a PR employed IN Canada by a genuinely Canadian business who is then temporarily assigned abroad (whether for a two-month or two-year assignment to a particular position abroad, or recurring two-day or two-week time periods working for the business abroad).

As I have oft attempted to illuminate, this credit tends to be very tricky. And, generally, those PRs who need the credit (that is those who have been in Canada less then 40% of the time), typically involve situations in which qualifying for the credit is especially tricky.

Nonetheless, to be clear, the employed-abroad-by-Canadian-business credit is a real credit.


Canuck 78,

It is not why I might think that my business trips will be counted towards my residency, and actually this is not what I was aiming for but when cic posts on their website about the excemptions I guess there is no doubt that this might help for such case like my case or else they would have deleted it :

There are several exemptions where a PR can count time spent outside Canada toward the residency obligation:

  • You are accompanying your Canadian citizen spouse or common-law partner
  • You are a child (under 19) and accompanying your Canadian citizen parent
  • You are a full-time and ongoing employee of, or under contract to, a Canadian business or the federal/provincial government (there are specific definitions of a Canadian business)
  • You are accompanying your spouse or parent who is a PR and is employed full-time by a Canadian business or the federal/provincial government
Participants in this particular forum (regarding PRs) are generally well acquainted with the provisions which allow credit toward RO compliance for time abroad. There are other topics in this part of the forum in which the employed-abroad-by-Canadian-business credit is discussed at length, in-depth, with numerous citations and links to relevant IAD and Federal Court decisions (which are official accounts of official decisions in actual cases). Similarly as to the accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-abroad credit.

As my observations in response above to remarks by @canuck78 should illustrate: there is a pervasive tendency to interpret and apply these provisions selectively in a way which favours a positive outcome in situations which do NOT meet requirements for the credit.

For example, a PR hired by a Canadian business to work in a position abroad is not, NOT generally, entitled to credit for the time working abroad.

Leading to this:

3 : my employment is based in Canada and my contract is with a genuine business company which has been effective since more than 25 years, and me as a former experienced trader who has been doing business between China and Congo and Lebanon since 2004, has been assigned by the Canadian company since September 2014 as their purchase manager overseas in order to start purchasing them new items from China and Congo and trying to open new markets for them in Lebanon, Dubai and lately France.
It is NOT clear whether this will qualify for the credit or not. As already discussed, assessing an individual case is so individual-fact specific it is NOT possible for anyone here to offer a reliable opinion about whether your employment qualifies for the credit. To be frank, several aspects of your description suggest that you do NOT qualify for the credit. BUT again, neither I nor anyone else here can reliably evaluate this for you. Again, if you are abroad so much that you do not meet the RO by just counting days present in Canada, evaluating qualification for this credit tends to be very tricky.

Among the aspects suggesting problems qualifying for the employed-abroad-by-Canadian-business credit, it appears you were hired for an overseas position, rather than hired to work IN Canada and THEN TEMPORARILY assigned abroad. Generally this will NOT qualify for the credit. If, in contrast, you were indeed hired to work IN Canada, and your primary workplace is in fact IN CANADA, and the days abroad are indeed discreet business trips, that would tip the scales toward this time getting credit.

Again, this is subject to the caveat that whether your employment qualifies for the credit is very individual fact-specific and all I can do is highlight elements of this or that factor; I cannot offer a reliable conclusion. In this regard, be aware that common usage of certain important terms can often appear to support conclusions which are ERRONEOUS. For example, you describe your employment as being "assigned" by the Canadian business. This particular term tends to be a bit loaded and is the subject of in-depth analysis in more than a few IAD decisions. I cannot discern whether the facts in your situation indicate you were hired for a position abroad, or hired for a position in Canada and then "assigned" abroad. But this is an important distinction (and whether the assignment qualifies as "temporary" or not is another important factor). And be aware there are other nuances, that this is just one.

Re accompanying-citizen-spouse abroad credit: My previous post should amply cover that. This credit does not apply unless you were living abroad together. (Even then there are can be some nuances, but to qualify for the credit at the very least the couple need to be cohabiting abroad.)


Looming escape per H&C reasons:

To be clear, my observations about credit for working abroad should NOT be understood as contrary to other observations in my previous post. These latter observations are intended to be clarifying.

At this stage questions about why did you apply for a new PR card when you did are totally irrelevant, of NO import. And personally I can identify a range of reasons why it made sense to do so . . . but recognizing the RISKS. A tangent not worth pursuing.

All this said, again key factors in your favour appear to be the extent to which you have ongoing ties in Canada, an ongoing primary residence in Canada, family in Canada, and an intent to make Canada your home. While the extent to which you fall short of the 730 minimum presence obligation is quite a lot (absences adding up to nearly 1200 days in just five years tends suggest an individual is NOT permanently settled in Canada), there APPEARS (emphasis on what it merely APPEARS to be) to be an overall picture favouring a decision to allow you to retain PR status, at least AT THIS JUNCTURE. That is far from guaranteed. I previously addressed the potential need to appeal if there is a decision which could terminate your status. I previously addressed the all-too-real prospect you could face having to identify what your priorities are and correspondingly make some difficult decisions. You may want to get prepared for various next-step contingencies.
 

vensak

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Ok,
Let me give a more simple examples here.
Example 1:
A purchaser sits in his office in Toronto. Suddenly comes his boss with bad news : " Hey, Joe that last delivery of diamands from Congo was all fakes, you need to go down and solve this issue with the supplier. Buy your ticket to Africa and stay there for 1 week to solve it."
So this one does count (it is a simple business trip)

Example 2:
Company has their team of buyers and they want to expand to a new Market (Libanon). They are aware, that they need to have there a temporary support from a more experienced unit from Canada. That support will select suitable local team and train them. After that that person will return back to Canada. Expected time for that operation is 12-18 months. So Bill will be assigned for that operation. And the company can confirm that Bill can return back to Canada (either on his previous position or he will be promoted).
So this one counts because the assignment is temporary and they want the employee to return back to the subsidiary of origin.

Example 3:
A company has hired somebody and a bit later on they have identified that they need a permanent link to Canada in their sister company in China. They have assigned Tim to do this. It is crucial for this position to be in a direct contact with the local team, however because the work there is not identified as a full time, he will also do some tasks for Canadian branch (for example market analysis) - all that done from China. Her will be reporting directly under a Canadian boss and his contract and salary would be Canadian (which is most of the time better than Chinese contract).
So this one does not count regardless if that person has Canadian contract or not. The important part is that nobody needs Tim sitting in person in the Canadian office and nobody counts that he will return. Yes it might change in the future, but his current assignment does not mention this possibility.

Example 4:
Tim from the previous example, ever so often travels back to Canada (lets say every 3 months for 2 weeks). During one of his stay, he is asked to help with an emergency with a problematic USA supplier. and travel there for 1 week.
Now that business trip to USA will not count, because of his assignment abroad.

And now to the accompanying part.

Example 1:
Maria is Canadian and Diego is Mexican and they are married. Maria gets a good job offer in Mexico and she uses NAFTA agreement to get work permit easily. Diego will follow her and find also a good job opportunity there. They will live together in Mexico as well.
So those days will count for Diego.

Example 2:
Rob is Canadian and Jenny is from USA. Jenny get a lucrative job offer from Silicon valley. As Rob is a free lance photographer, he has no problem to relocate with Jenny and still do his job for Canadian clients. Later on he will get work visa as well and is able to offer his services on the local market.
In this case those days will most probably not count, because Canadian citizen followed the other person.

The above examples are simplifications, but they will give you a sound idea what to expect.
 

Ninio

Full Member
Oct 31, 2018
25
0
I thank you very much for taking the time to do this detailed explanation, for the fact that I see myself as such a deceived husband that his wife told him that she was waiting for him and then after he returned she said to him that he is a liar and it's not what I promised her and that she wants divorce.

Usually, I know that the law should be easy , and to understand it you should read the lines and not what lies between them, simple to understand without the help law analysists , but unfortunately I feel here that the law is subject to interpretation and there are many things hidden in many aspects.

if and if and then can and can and can, and then back to the starting point.

It is frustrating after 5 years, to know that the law that should protect you , is the same law that you must be aware of. It is really sad that you thought you were doing everything right and legally as required by the law in order to be a successful person in your job, and then you see yourself in the eyes of that same law as an illegitimate person trying to absolve yourself of a charge you did not commit and all eyes are on you to prove your legal intentions.

I thank you all again for your help but I am trying here at least once, to understand in what particular situation I am in.

Will I lose what I thought I was doing right in the eyes of the law...actually, I will be more clear and explicit than the law:

1 :Will I be rejected to renew my PR card?

2: Should I start considering appointing a lawyer to acquit me of the ambiguity of the law?