+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

Pr renewel problem

Alii helmy

Newbie
Aug 17, 2018
1
0
Hello everyone I'm Ali fron Egypt i had the PR card about 4 years ago. only lived in canada for 3 months my PR will expire in october 2019. I know that i have to fly to canada to live there for 2 years without treatment with immigration abd after complete the all perid go to immigration to renew my card.. I know that but i have tow issues
1/i gave lied when i was speaking with the officer as my English was so bad so i told him that i lived in canada tow years instead of tow months
2/i'm outside now in my country and cannot leave it cause of studying and my grandma is sick....
Finally tell me ur opinions and advise me to skip the problem
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
95,909
22,153
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Hello everyone I'm Ali fron Egypt i had the PR card about 4 years ago. only lived in canada for 3 months my PR will expire in october 2019. I know that i have to fly to canada to live there for 2 years without treatment with immigration abd after complete the all perid go to immigration to renew my card.. I know that but i have tow issues
1/i gave lied when i was speaking with the officer as my English was so bad so i told him that i lived in canada tow years instead of tow months
2/i'm outside now in my country and cannot leave it cause of studying and my grandma is sick....
Finally tell me ur opinions and advise me to skip the problem
1) Never lie to an immigration officer. If you do not feel comfortable communicating in English, then you should request an interpreter.
2) Studying outside of Canada is not accepted as an excuse for failing to meet the residency requirement.Taking care of your ill grandmother may be accepted as an excuse as long as their are no other family members living in your home country (i.e. you are the only one who is living there) and you can provide hard evidence that your grandmother needed care and is unable to live alone.

You should return to Canada as soon as possible and then plan to live here for two years straight if you want to try to keep your PR status.
 

bricksonly

Hero Member
Mar 18, 2018
434
54
Or accompanying a Canadian spouse in Egypt....
But there is a trend to define "accompanying" is your following your Canadian spouse to work, study, live, not the opposite...if you are working and support the family outside Canada, then it's your spouse accompanying you, thus not qualified?
 

steaky

VIP Member
Nov 11, 2008
14,784
1,754
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
But there is a trend to define "accompanying" is your following your Canadian spouse to work, study, live, not the opposite...if you are working and support the family outside Canada, then it's your spouse accompanying you, thus not qualified?
No such trend.
 

Tubsmagee

Hero Member
Jul 2, 2016
438
131
No such trend.
While not necessarily a trend, there have been a couple of decisions where the definition of accompanying is examined, and the PR found to have not been accompanying the citizen spouse. I would say most of these are the result of attempts to abuse system, but for a PR who is accompanying a citizen spouse, it is something to consider.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dpenabill

steaky

VIP Member
Nov 11, 2008
14,784
1,754
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
While not necessarily a trend, there have been a couple of decisions where the definition of accompanying is examined, and the PR found to have not been accompanying the citizen spouse. I would say most of these are the result of attempts to abuse system, but for a PR who is accompanying a citizen spouse, it is something to consider.
Describe the two decisions and link.
 

Tubsmagee

Hero Member
Jul 2, 2016
438
131
Describe the two decisions and link.
Ibrahim v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 60499 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/hst3d>, retrieved on 2018-08-02(Denied - not accompanying) May 2018

Javadian-Sarraf v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 68435 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/ht5t6>, retrieved on 2018-08-02 (Denied, though acknowledged that time spent accompanying Canadian citizen spouse counted) April 2018

Dadash-zadeh v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 46499 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/hsldq>, retrieved on 2018-08-02 (Denied - Not accompanying because Canadian citizen went overseas to join PR) March 2018

Ezeibe v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2017 CanLII 29598 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/h3ssj>, retrieved on 2018-08-02
(denial - not sufficient to be considered accompanying) April 2017

Khaira v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2014 CanLII 95529 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/gksqq>, retrieved on 2018-08-02 (Denied - Canadian citizen joined PR overseas years after he had left Canada) April 2014
 
Last edited:

zardoz

VIP Member
Feb 2, 2013
13,298
2,167
Canada
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
London
App. Filed.......
16-02-2013
VISA ISSUED...
31-07-2013
LANDED..........
09-11-2013
Ibrahim v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 60499 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/hst3d>, retrieved on 2018-08-02(Denied - not accompanying) May 2018

Javadian-Sarraf v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 68435 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/ht5t6>, retrieved on 2018-08-02 (Denied, though acknowledged that time spent accompanying Canadian citizen spouse counted) April 2018

Dadash-zadeh v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 46499 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/hsldq>, retrieved on 2018-08-02 (Denied - Not accompanying because Canadian citizen went overseas to join PR) March 2018

Ezeibe v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2017 CanLII 29598 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/h3ssj>, retrieved on 2018-08-02
(denial - not sufficient to be considered accompanying) April 2017

Khaira v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2014 CanLII 95529 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/gksqq>, retrieved on 2018-08-02 (Denied - Canadian citizen joined PR overseas years after he had left Canada) April 2014
I find it important to note the following paragraph in the very first case referenced, because it underlines the question of the legal significance of the IRCC operational manuals.

[18] I find the referenced IAD decisions instructive in this appeal. I share the view that [subparagraph 28(2)(a)(ii) of the Act requires a determination as to whether or not the permanent resident is outside Canada engaged in the activity of “accompanying” a Canadian citizen who is their spouse, within the ordinary meaning of that term and having regard to the broader scheme and objectives of the Act. I note that the IRCC ENF 23 is a reference tool to guide immigration officers and other representatives of the Minister in the performance of their duties. It is not binding on the IAD. Although the policy statements in that manual were applied by the same IAD panel in Turken and Raheja,[15] it is unclear why that approach was preferred over the analysis adopted in the IAD decisions I have cited that precede those two appeals. It is not an approach I choose to follow in this appeal.

A number of forum members have been emphasizing this point over the past year or two and it is helpful to see a case law reference. The bottom line is that "accompanying" can be polarized and may not be in favour of the appellant...

HOWEVER, in Cherrak v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 61861 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/hsw3f>, retrieved on 2018-08-18

[11] For many years, there has been an unresolved controversy regarding the interpretation to be attributed to the phrase “accompanying a Canadian citizen” as found in subparagraph 28(2)(a)(ii) of the Act. There are members of the tribunal who are of the opinion that these words should be given their ordinary meaning and contend that in order to include these days spent outside of Canada in the calculation for purposes of respecting the residency obligation, the permanent resident must be accompanying the Canadian citizen who is his spouse or common-law partner and not otherwise. In other words, if the Canadian citizen spouse is living with the permanent resident partner outside of Canada, because the permanent resident is working in a foreign country, this would indicate that the citizen is accompanying the permanent resident and would not meet the definition of “accompanying a Canadian citizen”. The reasoning is that one of the objectives of the Act, as set forth in paragraph 3(1)(c) is to support the development of a strong and prosperous Canadian economy, and that such objective would not be met if a permanent resident were permitted to live outside of Canada, without restriction, while being accompanied by his or her Canadian spouse or common-law partner. On the other hand, a citizen is entitled to live outside of Canada. A citizen can marry a foreigner and decide to sponsor the spouse as a member of the family class. If the marriage is found to be genuine and not entered into in order for the foreigner to obtain a status in Canada, then a citizen can sponsor the spouse, and permanent resident status will be granted, provided the sponsor resides in Canada when the spouse becomes a permanent resident.[13] Once the spouse has landed in Canada as a permanent resident, there is nothing in the law that prevents the citizen and the permanent resident to live together outside of Canada, and there is nothing in the Act that requires the spouse to support the development of a strong and prosperous Canadian economy.

[12] Moreover, although neither subsection 28(2) of the Act nor subsection 61(4) of the Regulations has defined “accompanying a Canadian citizen”, Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC) has prepared a manual, ENF 23 entitled “Loss of permanent resident status” and has indicated at section 7.5[14] that
“In the case of a permanent resident outside Canada accompanying a Canadian citizen, it is not necessary to determine who is accompanying whom, nor is it necessary to determine for what purpose. In other words, under A28(2)(a)(ii) and R61(4), as long as a permanent resident is accompanying a Canadian citizen, the intent and purpose of their absences are not relevant as the residency obligation is met.”

[13] It may well be that the interpretation given by CIC in its manual ENF 23 is not binding on the IAD; however, in the interest of fairness and consistency, a permanent resident is entitled to expect that the condition “accompanying a Canadian citizen” will be interpreted and applied in the fashion set forth in the CIC manual.

[14] In the Supreme Court case of Muhsem Ahmed Ramadan Agraira v. the Minister of Public Safety and Preparedness,[15] the Court addressed the issue of procedural fairness with respect to the doctrine of legitimate expectations. In this case, CIC had issued an Operational Manual interpreting the meaning of “national interest”. The Court stated that the guidelines were published by CIC, and although CIC is not the Minister’s Department, it is clear that they are used by employees of both CIC and Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) for guidance in the exercice of their functions and in applying the legislation. The guidelines are and were publicly available and they constitute a relatively comprehensive procedural code for dealing with applications for ministerial relief. Thus the appellant could reasonably expect that his application would be dealt with in accordance with the process set out in them.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: dpenabill

zardoz

VIP Member
Feb 2, 2013
13,298
2,167
Canada
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
London
App. Filed.......
16-02-2013
VISA ISSUED...
31-07-2013
LANDED..........
09-11-2013
I like the Cherrak decision, and there are quite a few where the judge determined that either accompanying could be either way, or that since it was undefined by parliament, that it should be to benefit of PR. The problem I see is that the decisions are not (or don’t seem to be) precedential in any way. PRs who are abroad need to be aware that while they may have had no issues for years, it could change on a whim.
Yeah. It needs one of three things to happen.
1) IRCC rewrites that section of ENF 23, or
2) Parliament updates IRPR/IRPA as appropriate, or
3) A higher Federal Court sets case law in place.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tubsmagee

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
Ibrahim v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 60499 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/hst3d>, retrieved on 2018-08-02(Denied - not accompanying) May 2018

Javadian-Sarraf v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 68435 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/ht5t6>, retrieved on 2018-08-02 (Denied, though acknowledged that time spent accompanying Canadian citizen spouse counted) April 2018

Dadash-zadeh v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 46499 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/hsldq>, retrieved on 2018-08-02 (Denied - Not accompanying because Canadian citizen went overseas to join PR) March 2018

Ezeibe v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2017 CanLII 29598 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/h3ssj>, retrieved on 2018-08-02
(denial - not sufficient to be considered accompanying) April 2017

Khaira v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2014 CanLII 95529 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/gksqq>, retrieved on 2018-08-02 (Denied - Canadian citizen joined PR overseas years after he had left Canada) April 2014

HOWEVER, in Cherrak v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 61861 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/hsw3f>, retrieved on 2018-08-18

[11] For many years, there has been an unresolved controversy regarding the interpretation to be attributed to the phrase “accompanying a Canadian citizen” as found in subparagraph 28(2)(a)(ii) of the Act.

I am pleased, excited actually, to see evidence of real homework, researching actual cases in official decisions.

And these are indeed noteworthy decisions even though they are merely IAD panel decisions.

I intend to comment further about the content of the referenced decisions but will mostly do so in either the other topic in which the discussion about credit for accompanying a citizen-spouse was brought up in reference to a recently issued departure order, or I may start a new topic so that the topic title references the issue more specifically.


A note for clarification:

Javadian-Sarraf v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 68435 (CA IRB), <http://canlii.ca/t/ht5t6>, retrieved on 2018-08-02 (Denied, though acknowledged that time spent accompanying Canadian citizen spouse counted) April 2018
Actually the appeal was allowed based on H&C reasons. It is nonetheless clear that counting days accompanying citizen-spouse was a critical element since that made the difference in the extent of the breach: the difference between being short of compliance by nearly 700 days versus short by only a little over a hundred days. The latter is what supported the panel's conclusion that "the threshold to warrant special relief is not especially high." This allowed the panel to conclude there were sufficient H&C reasons for the PR to keep PR status.


Some observations about the weight or precedence of these decisions:

IAD decisions have virtually no formal or official weight in other cases. They are, after all, largely facts-specific decisions. Interpretations of law are limited to their application in that specific case. While Board or Panel decisions are sometimes given significant weight by the Federal Court in a further appeal in that specific case, this too tends to be particular to the specific case and the amount of deference due the IAD appears to be relatively minimal.

As can be seen in some of these decisions, the reasoning in a decision itself may be persuasive to a particular Panel (akin to an quasi-judicial officer or administrative judge) and thus applied in other cases. For example, one sees Diouf v. Canada, 2011 CanLII 59952 (CA IRB); Smith v. Canada, 2007 CanLII 67256 (CA IRB); Turken v. Canada, 2016 CanLII 64004 (CA IRB), and other IAD decisions cited in multiple cases. This does NOT mean these decisions have any more weight as precedent. It does mean that the reasoning or principle for which the decision is cited is given particular consideration.

But no matter how many times such cases are cited, they are not official precedent. And it is important to be aware of contrary interpretations in other cases.

The latter is particularly true in regards to questions related to whether a PR is entitled to a credit for accompanying a citizen-spouse abroad.

Which leads to the Panel's (Edward Aronoff) observations in the Cherrak decision:

For many years, there has been an unresolved controversy regarding the interpretation to be attributed to the phrase “accompanying a Canadian citizen” as found in subparagraph 28(2)(a)(ii) of the Act.

This is in reference to the distinction between the ordinary meaning of accompanying (in which who goes with whom is pivotal) versus the interpretation set out in ENF 23 "Loss of Permanent Resident Status," pursuant to which it does not matter who accompanied whom.​

This warrants further attention, and my view is that the actual cases themselves amply illustrate when and why the more strict interpretation is likely to apply and when it is NOT likely to apply (which I have mostly explained in my previous posts on this subject), allowing for some difficult-to-call close cases, but in any event it is clear in the various IAD decisions (including many going back well before these most recent decisions) SOMETIMES the IAD will apply the strict who-accompanied-whom interpretation and OTHER TIMES it rejects that approach. Again, I believe that in almost every such case, going either way, the approach employed can be explained. That does not make predictions about how it will be applied in other cases easy.

EXCEPT, it still appears safe to say that subject to certain fairly narrow exceptions (the PR who never was settled in Canada being the most common and obvious exception), that if the PR is in fact living with a Canadian-citizen-spouse abroad, it is very likely, almost certain, credit toward compliance with the PR RO for that time will be allowed.

Obviously, some PRs will want to pay particular attention to the possible exceptions. But they mostly have a good idea who they are and why they have cause for concern.

In contrast, the PR who has been settled and living in Canada, and who is in a marital relationship with a Canadian citizen BEFORE going abroad, should have no reason to worry about getting credit for days the couple is later living together abroad regardless of the circumstances leading them to go abroad and regardless who goes abroad first. In such situations it is highly unlikely there will be any parsing of who-accompanied-whom.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
[Comment in Cherrak decision]. . . underlines the question of the legal significance of the IRCC operational manuals.

Again, the Panel's (Edward Aronoff) observations in the Cherrak decision:

It may well be that the interpretation given by CIC in its manual ENF 23 is not binding on the IAD; however, in the interest of fairness and consistency, a permanent resident is entitled to expect that the condition “accompanying a Canadian citizen” will be interpreted and applied in the fashion set forth in the CIC manual.

It warrants emphasizing that the legal significance of IRCC operational manuals GENERALLY have been addressed by the Federal Court as well as other IAD panels, going back a long way, and the consensus limits their significance more so than to merely say the manuals are NOT binding. While it has been a long while since I did a lot of research into the weight given the manuals (this issue loomed more saliently when there was a citizenship manual, CP 5 "Residence," applicable to determinations of residency in citizenship applications, and a great deal of controversy in how to calculate residency for citizenship, all prior to Harper's Bill C-24), the consensus generally dismissed client arguments based on reliance on the manuals (but the FC usually considered the manual, when argued, relevant to its interpretation, but again NOT binding).

Aronoff (in the Cherrak decision) expresses what I think is a relatively uncommon principle (acknowledging, however, this deserves more current research), that PRs are, in effect, "entitled" to rely on policy stated in the manuals and a decision to the contrary may constitute procedural unfairness.

It warrants distinguishing Aronoff's approach in Cherrak versus that by Rose Andrachuk in the Turken decision (see http://canlii.ca/t/gtw9d ) and similarly Andrachuk's decision in the Raheja case (see http://canlii.ca/t/h47r3 ):

Although the Policy is not binding on the IAD, in the interest of fairness and consistency I prefer to rely on the statements as set out in the policy. It appears that it does not matter who accompanies whom as long as one of the parties is a Canadian citizen as is the case in this appeal. Motivation for them being together is also irrelevant.

The distinction is subtle but important. Andrachuk does not suggest PRs can rely on IRCC to apply the manual as such. This is more consistent with what I recall of older decisions addressing how much weight to give the manuals. There is a similar approach, albeit not so specifically articulated, in the Liong decision, 2013 CanLII 98789 (see http://canlii.ca/t/gj8wt )

In contrast, however, my sense is that the more common approach to the manuals is similar to that articulated by Mark D. Chernin in the Hadi Dadash-Zadeh decision (see http://canlii.ca/t/hsldq ), that the manual is essentially (and in a more practical sense merely) "a reference tool to guide immigration officers and other representatives of the Minister in the performance of their duties."

Statements of policy in applying the law and regulations are generally NOT themselves deemed to be legal interpretations, even though they sometimes shed light for a decision maker when interpreting how to apply what is otherwise unclear law. That is, more than merely NOT binding, they are not even a rule, not even binding on the agency which issues the manual, merely a guide and not so much a guideline.

My approach to the manuals (and similarly so the PDIs which have replaced many of the manuals) has long been to give them a lot of weight in terms of revealing the dominant approach employed by IRCC BUT NOT RELY on them as definitive and in particular to be cognizant of the extent to which there is evidence that IRCC, the IAD, and the Federal Court are not following what the manuals state, which actually has been quite common (was especially common during the Harper years prior to the PDIs replacing the Citizenship Operational Manuals, especially CP 5 "Residence," which tended to be largely ignored by CIC, Citizenship Judges, and the Federal Court). That is, the manuals are helpful but other resources are important.


A note about Federal Court decisions:

Over time there have been numerous Federal Court decisions in PR RO breach cases, but way, way fewer in comparison to the published IAD decisions (I am not clear about which IAD decisions are published versus those not published). Without revisiting old research I have done, or doing the research again, it has been a long while since the Federal Court weighed in on the accompanying a citizen-spouse issue.

Federal Court decisions are also NOT binding in other cases. So even if one of these IAD decisions resulted in leave for judicial review and was addressed by a Federal Court, that would NOT conclusively resolve this issue.

While I am not particularly familiar with when or why an issue could be subject to further review by the Federal Court of Appeal (I know some issues for which such review is available, such as a decision in a Citizenship case in which the Federal Court has certified a question for further review, but I do not know generally when such review is available), it is my strong impression that this issue is NOT likely to be addressed let alone decided by a Federal Court of Appeal any time in the near future. But yes, a Federal Court of Appeal decision would be binding (subject to further appeal to the Supreme Court in very limited circumstances), binding on CBSA, IRCC, the IAD, and the Federal Court.


Resolution of conflicting views about what satisfies the "accompanying" element for credit toward PR RO compliance:

I do NOT see there is as much controversy as, say, suggested by Aronoff in the Cherrak decision. As I noted above, my view is that the actual cases themselves amply illustrate when and why the more strict interpretation is likely to apply and when it is NOT likely to apply, allowing for some difficult-to-call close cases. Thus, even though SOMETIMES the IAD will apply the strict who-accompanied-whom interpretation and OTHER TIMES it rejects that approach, I believe that in almost every such case, going either way, the approach employed can be explained.

In particular, I believe that the extent of the PR's establishment in Canada is a huge factor. Among the factual scenarios in which who-accompanied-whom is questioned, the PR who never was settled in Canada (or otherwise not settled in Canada for a very long time and prior to the marital relationship with the citizen-spouse) is perhaps the most common and obvious example in which who-accompanied-whom is parsed.

In particular, this factor loomed large in the Khaira decision, the Ezeibe decision, and the Dadash-zadeh decision.

As I noted, for example, under almost any approach to interpreting what "accompanying" means, it is difficult if not impossible to conclude someone who was not residing in Canada accompanied anyone abroad. While the latter is neither the language nor reasoning used by IAD panels, and is contrary to those specifically applying the ENF 23 approach, my sense is this identifies the PR who has the most risk of a strict approach based on parsing who-accompanied-whom.


Note About IRPA Regulation 61(4):

(see http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-14.html#h-32)

I do not know why this regulation has not played a more significant role in cases where the who-accompanied-whom issue arises.

The regulation states:

(4) For the purposes of subparagraphs 28(2)(a)(ii) and (iv) of the Act and this section, a permanent resident is accompanying outside Canada a Canadian citizen or another permanent resident — who is their spouse or common-law partner or, in the case of a child, their parent — on each day that the permanent resident is ordinarily residing with the Canadian citizen or the other permanent resident.

In contrast, many of the decisions state that neither the law (IRPA) nor the IRPA Regulations define "accompanying," and either do not reference this regulation at all, or only give it minimal consideration.

Regulations are law. They must be interpreted and applied consistently with the applicable statutory provisions, meaning the statute governs over the regulation, but otherwise they are not merely an interpretation of law, they are positive statements of law. They are binding.

So I am not sure why the decisions do not overtly, explicitly acknowledge that so long as the couple is living together, that is "ordinarily residing" with one another, those days count as days accompanying the citizen-spouse.

I believe this is in fact the general rule and approach, by CBSA and by IRCC. That days in which the couple are ordinarily residing with one another will get credit. Which is why I am quite confident that so long as the PR has previously settled and been living in Canada, and is in a marital relationship with a Canadian citizen BEFORE going abroad, the PR should have no reason to worry about getting credit for days the couple is later living together abroad regardless of the circumstances leading them to go abroad and regardless who goes abroad first, and that in such situations it is highly unlikely there will be any parsing of who-accompanied-whom.

BUT I cannot explain why this regulation has not had more impact in some of the cases where there is a focus on who-accompanied-whom.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Tubsmagee