Parents Sponsorship - Stop Immigration Lottery

[Rob_TO]

Not sure we need to assume that the lottery is here to stay. IRCC is well aware that your position is in the minority. From the same memo: Historical data show that a majority (73%) of the respondents to on-line consultations conducted during the pause on intake of applications (November 2011 to December 2013) supported the first in, first out system and 81% of respondents opposed a lottery model.

No surprise that those who want to sponsor parents want a FIFO system, most likely because all they are focused on is their own situation for their own parents, and not looking at the program as a whole. However IRCC probably couldn't care less, and they will run the PGP program the best way they see fit. So i maintain the position that the lottery system is most likely here to stay.

FIFO leads to too many potential problems, that will just get worse and worse each subsequent year as more applicants are vying for the same number of spots:
- Couriers will charge higher and higher fees each year, some non-refundable, since it will require them to stand in line earlier and earlier each year
- choosing the right couriers will turn into it's own lottery, since some will miss the cut if they get in line too late
- removing the cap and allowing submissions anytime, would lead to 15+ year waiting times for processing since PRs being approved each year is still set to a strict quota
- With only 1 national intake address, there is a perceived advantage to someone living close to the local couriers

When the cap was introduced and program re-opened in 2014, the 5K cap took around 3 weeks to fill up. By 2016, it took barely 1 day or so. You don't need to be a mathematician to extrapolate where this would be going a few years later. Cap filling up would soon be measured in hours.

 

[K2K]

FIFO leads to too many potential problems, that will just get worse and worse each subsequent year as more applicants are vying for the same number of spots...
- With only 1 national intake address, there is a perceived advantage to someone living close to the local couriers

Nobody is saying that FIFO cannot be modified to serve the purpose. Your mention of one national address is clearly something to deal with. Give each province one address. And better still (by the way from the same memo):

• Electronic applications intake is a modernized approach that is consistent with current trends and is expected to improve client service. Electronic applications will facilitate parent and grandparent sponsorship application distribution across the network, based on operational capacity and existing triage processes.
  
• There is currently no system in place allowing for the submission of electronic applications for the Family Class, including applications to sponsor parents and grandparents. The longer-term departmental plan is to have an electronic applications system in place for Family Class sponsorship applications in the future. There are no specific timelines for this initiative at this time due to the need for costing analyses, source of funding, an information technology design, etc.

Start advocating for electronic submission to tackle backlogs not lotteries. Why do you think the government did not apply lottery system to deal with spousal reunification backlogs? Because that is not a solution. In regards to spousal reunification, "Hussen said the results were achieved by deploying a "tiger team" of staff to tackle the backlog, and by simplifying the application process to avoid delays and duplication." (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/spousal-sponsorship-hussen-progress-1.4533439)

 

[mikeymyke]

It doesn't matter what percentage supports the lottery or oppose, if you ask the majority of Canadians, most oppose the sponsoring of parents, period. Be grateful that this country at least gives you the option to do so, and allows this for people who havent even lived here for as long as everyone else here has.

 

[K2K]

Be grateful that this country at least gives you the option to do so, and allows this for people who havent even lived here for as long as everyone else here has.

Leave this comment for yourself or for somebody else...
"In 2016, 7.5 million people — about 21.9 per cent of the total population — reported being foreign-born individuals who immigrated to Canada." Shall we start being thankful to ourselves for propping up this country, whose main source of growth is immigrants...

 

[OP_POP]

Leave this comment for yourself or for somebody else...
"In 2016, 7.5 million people — about 21.9 per cent of the total population — reported being foreign-born individuals who immigrated to Canada." Shall we start being thankful to ourselves for propping up this country, whose main source of growth is immigrants...

Maybe you should leave your crazy thoughts to yourself. Mike is absolutely right, why would majority of Canadians want to pay from their pocket (tax) for bringing a bunch of old people in country that mostly don’t contribute to the economy? Btw, i myself sponsored my parents and still think this way. We should be greately appreciative that this program even exists for us.....

 

[Rob_TO]

Nobody is saying that FIFO cannot be modified to serve the purpose. Your mention of one national address is clearly something to deal with. Give each province one address. And better still (by the way from the same memo):

• Electronic applications intake is a modernized approach that is consistent with current trends and is expected to improve client service. Electronic applications will facilitate parent and grandparent sponsorship application distribution across the network, based on operational capacity and existing triage processes.
  
• There is currently no system in place allowing for the submission of electronic applications for the Family Class, including applications to sponsor parents and grandparents. The longer-term departmental plan is to have an electronic applications system in place for Family Class sponsorship applications in the future. There are no specific timelines for this initiative at this time due to the need for costing analyses, source of funding, an information technology design, etc.

Start advocating for electronic submission to tackle backlogs not lotteries. Why do you think the government did not apply lottery system to deal with spousal reunification backlogs? Because that is not a solution. In regards to spousal reunification, "Hussen said the results were achieved by deploying a "tiger team" of staff to tackle the backlog, and by simplifying the application process to avoid delays and duplication." (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/spousal-sponsorship-hussen-progress-1.4533439)

You are missing the point on why there were backlogs. It's completely different for spousal vs PGP.

In spousal, first off they are 100x more important than PGP, so a lottery would never be considered. Vast majority of Canadians support sponsoring a spouse for PR, not so much for parents.
Also the spousal backlogs were solely due to manpower and resources in processing apps. The goal for spousal apps is to get them done as quickly as possible, with no thought on yearly quotas.

For PGP apps, the manpower/resources to process them is irrelevant. The backlog existed solely because they had strict quotas on PGP PR visas allowed to be issued per year. So it wouldn't matter if they had a dedicated thousand officers processing parents apps, the backlog would still get to 15+ years in a FIFO system since they would have quota of X apps allowed to be completed each year, but tons more new ones being submitted. At some point in the year when quota was reached on PRs issued, all PGP processing would simply stop for rest of the year while apps were continued to be submitted.

For same reason, electronic processing of PGP apps would also be irrelevant. However this would be a great solution to speed up spousal apps as long as they could ensure it doesn't increase the fraud rate.

Electronic apps also wouldn't do much to help the PGP intake process. With a cap of 10K and FIFO with online submission, it would just turn into a case of who can log on to the IRCC system quickest to submit an app once the program opens in January. Those with slower internet connections (like all those who live in rural areas) would be at a severe disadvantage. They do the same thing here in Toronto when we register kids for city programs, once registration opens it's mad clicking to get into the system before the class you want fills (sometimes in just a few minutes).

 

[K2K]

The backlog existed solely because they had strict quotas on PGP PR visas allowed to be issued per year.

Thanks for clarifying. So if there was a quota of 5K applications for PGP prior to the increase to 10K, what was the quota on visas?
BTW, I am not sure IRCC has a firm position on why they changed the PGP application intake. Here is the line from the response prepared by IRCC in response to my letter to the former chair of the Parliamentary standing committee on immigration:
"IRCC made changes to the application intake process of the PGP in order to eliminate the existing backlog and prevent the occurrence of future backlogs."
In my understanding, the only way one can use the lottery to reduce the backlog if one persistently under-fills the application intake, which would have been the case last year when many ineligible applications were submitted. What was the final tally on how many completed applications were received last year? Did they fill the 10K quota?

 

[OP_POP]

This is pretty simple math, i don't get why people can't understand it.
If you do FIFO without a cap, each year we will have around 100K applications (more or less), and Canada has a quota of 10K-15K PGP PRs per year. Even assuming we start from scratch, that will require 8-10 years to clear. The second year, we will add more to the queue (more blockage), which will require more years to process the applications (i.e. clear the blockage). I am sorry to say, but if it continues this way, to be quite blunt, most parents would be dead before their applications get processed. At least with the lottery, there will be some lucky ones that can bring their parents to Canada as PR within a few years.

As for FIFO with cap, it was like that a couple of years ago, but people complained that:

- people who are closer to the drop off location would have advantage
- couriers were taking advantage of the situation and were takings hundreds of dollars from applicants for lining up early
etc.

so IRCC decided to change it to lottery system. in 2018, they invited 15K applicants to get their 10K qualified ones.

 

[Rob_TO]

Thanks for clarifying. So if there was a quota of 5K applications for PGP prior to the increase to 10K, what was the quota on visas?

While the backlog was growing and before the program was suspended (so around 2010, 2011), the PRs issued was around 10K per year (so around 5K apps). Then when program went on pause and shortly after (2012-2015), to clear the backlog they upped the PRs issued to 20K-25K per year.

Going forward, the PRs granted each year would equal more or less the intake cap, to ensure the backlog doesn't grow out of control again. In 2016 the actual number admitted was 17K (target was 18K-20K).

IRCC estimates that 5K apps will equal 9K people being sponsored and getting PR. So with a 10K cap, expect the yearly quota on PRs approved will continue to be 18K-20K.

Do a quick google search for "Immigration Levels Plan" or something similar, to see all the historic actual amounts and future targets from IRCC.

BTW, I am not sure IRCC has a firm position on why they changed the PGP application intake. Here is the line from the response prepared by IRCC in response to my letter to the former chair of the Parliamentary standing committee on immigration:
"IRCC made changes to the application intake process of the PGP in order to eliminate the existing backlog and prevent the occurrence of future backlogs."
In my understanding, the only way one can use the lottery to reduce the backlog if one persistently under-fills the application intake, which would have been the case last year when many ineligible applications were submitted. What was the final tally on how many completed applications were received last year? Did they fill the 10K quota?

I saw a link that they got around 9500 qualified apps in 2017 with the 2 rounds of lottery.

The lottery is not meant to reduce backlog. They will still get 10K apps regardless if it's from lottery or FIFO. Lottery was implemented to allow completely fair access to all Canadians regardless of location, prevent couriers from gouging customers, and to prevent courier lineups days in advance at CIC offices (which is what would eventually happen).

Backlog is solely controlled by caps on incoming apps, and quotas on PRs being approved each year.

 

[nayr69sg]

FIFO has its problems and I agree with Rob_TO and OP_POP. We should not go back to FIFO.

As for mikey_mike's opinion about how PGP is a pure drain, we can start a stream that allows PGP that can contribute. Eg via investor route. invest $X million dollars and you qualify provided you are being sponsored by your children.

I mean right now we no longer have an investor route! What a waste!

This can benefit Canada and Canadians.

Which would you rather have? 15,0000 PGP on a pure lottery system, and get $0 out of it? Pure drain on Canadians? all for the sake of looking fair?

Or 10,000 PGP on pure lottery and 5,000 PGP who invested $5 million each into Canada for a total of $25 billion investment every year?

 

[nayr69sg]

It all has to be argued on the basis of what is best for Canadians?

What benefits does it bring to Canada?

Right now the public has a very poor impression of PGP. It is known as a drain on Canadians. It is known as how Canadian tax payers pay for immigrant parents to come and receive free health care which is a pure burden. Images of sick immigrant population elderly patients in hospital come to mind.

This can be changed. Any government can change the criteria for PGP. I propose that they have 2 arms. One a pure lottery like what we have now for humanitarian reasons to make Canada look good and sunny. It makes Canadians look good and charitable too. This is how Canadians want to be viewed and it makes them happy. One would argue that this is why PGP still exists today despite all the complaints about how much money is wasted and drained away. Fact is Canadians want to look good in the global stage.

The 2nd arm should be a investor route for Parents. Invest $5m over 5 years after which you get your $5m back with no interest. Surely over 5 years the Canadian govt can get returns on that which will cover the health care costs for these 2 parents? It helps Canada financially. The PGP essentially pay for their own healthcare through that investment. Meanwhile they do get the PR that allows them to live with their family. They will also have to pay estate duty on their passing.

With these two arms we have Canadians looking good and have PGP contributing to the economy.

Why not?

Seriously, $5m is a lot of money. Most immigrants with all their so called "contribution" to society etc may never even earn $5m in their lifetime. So PGP can be a route for contribution to Canada financially. You just need to take in some rich parents. Again I am not saying ONLY rich parents are allowed to get PGP but have a separate arm where fairly we want these individuals with high net worth to come to Canada and to come to Canada sooner.

The rest who don't have $5m can go through the lottery. it's fair.

Mikey_mike what are your thoughts on an Investor/PGP program?

 

[K2K]

Maybe you should leave your crazy thoughts to yourself. Mike is absolutely right, why would majority of Canadians want to pay from their pocket (tax) for bringing a bunch of old people in country that mostly don’t contribute to the economy? ... We should be greately appreciative that this program even exists for us.....

""A significant development in recent decades is that growth in potential output has been on a generally downward trend in most major advanced economies, including Canada, largely owing to the aging of our populations," Schembri of the Bank of Canada said in a speech to the Ottawa Economics Association and the CFA Society Ottawa. Amid a "formidable challenge" presented by the country's aging population, Schembri listed the need for more immigration as a remedy that will deliver increasingly necessary injections into the labour supply."
So not sure what appreciation i am supposed to feel... It should be out of question to not be able to reunite with parents. Any country that does not offer this opportunity would not get the immigrants it wants...

 

[canuck_in_uk]

""A significant development in recent decades is that growth in potential output has been on a generally downward trend in most major advanced economies, including Canada, largely owing to the aging of our populations," Schembri of the Bank of Canada said in a speech to the Ottawa Economics Association and the CFA Society Ottawa. Amid a "formidable challenge" presented by the country's aging population, Schembri listed the need for more immigration as a remedy that will deliver increasingly necessary injections into the labour supply."
So not sure what appreciation i am supposed to feel... It should be out of question to not be able to reunite with parents. Any country that does not offer this opportunity would not get the immigrants it wants...

Canada would still get "the immigrants it wants" even if PGP sponsorship were to be completely scrapped. People will still immigrate from less developed countries looking for better lives for themselves and their children. People will still immigrate who never had any plans to sponsor their parents. People will still come as students/foreign workers and make lives for themselves and stay.

 

[K2K]

Question: When a PR arrives under Express Entry, are they immediately eligible to participate in a lottery if they have the required income, but it is not from Canadian sources. In other words, if one could show income for the past three years from UK or US or Australia, that would satisfy an income qualification requirement? What about any country?

 

[canuck_in_uk]

Question: When a PR arrives under Express Entry, are they immediately eligible to participate in a lottery if they have the required income, but it is not from Canadian sources. In other words, if one could show income for the past three years from UK or US or Australia, that would satisfy an income qualification requirement? What about any country?

No, you cannot use your foreign income from before you moved here.