7 years of suffering for waiting for my citizenship; can someone help me please

[itsmyid]

I will finish writing my story until the day that I took the citizenship oath. There is still much more to go. But, this time I will not promise when I will write again.

To all the members who sent me private message asking for the name of the lawyer, I will try to send the name to you today. I am so.....so sorry for such a delay response because I just signed in to the forum today after almost 6 months ago.

Thanks for your story - just curious , what did the officer ask you and what did you answer that made her decide to give you RQ?

 

[luckychai]

Thanks for your story - just curious , what did the officer ask you and what did you answer that made her decide to give you RQ?

I will tell you with my best memories.She asked me about my marital status, I answered her that I separated.Then, she asked me whether I had children with my wife or where was my wife at that time or something like that. My response was "I didn't have a wife", "I had a same sex partner".

I shouldn't have elaborated that, I should have just played along like
" the relationship was over and I didn't have any children". Then, move on to another subject.

Anyway, I thought she knew it because when I applied for a permanent resident through a family class, it was very clear that I had a same sex partner. I thought the permanent resident application and the citizenship application were connected to one another.

As soon as I gave her the answer; her face expression was like " really". It was a blank strange look on her face as far as I remember. It started the bad vibes.

Then, she went on and on asking me about him such as where did I meet him. I told her the truth that I met him through internet dating website back in 2000. I realized afterward it was not a good answer.

I should have answered her more politically correct like " I met him in a gay sauna" or I was working as a rent boy (male prostitute) in a gay bar and he was one of my clients and we fell deeply in love to each other ( just kidding, I am making this as a joke, being sarcastic).

No, I mean I should have been more politically correct like " I met him when he came to visit my country as a tourist". Or, I accidentally met him in one of the tourist sites.

After that, a moment later she gave me a resident questionnaire.


Anyway, she sent me an e-mail back in June 15, 2011. This is her e-mail and I have to delete my real name and her name due to privacy act.



6/15/11 at 11:53 AM

Hi,

This message is for (I deleted my name) . I have been advised that you made an inquiry to the provincial Immigration office regarding the status of your Citizenship application. The provincial office (The Office of Immigration) is not responsible for Citizenship, therefore, they will not be able to assist you. I also realize that you are not able to contact our Call Centre as you are currently in Thailand, and the toll free number can only be used from within Canada. Therefore, I will provide you with a status update.



The documents you submitted on March 31, 2011 have been received by this office and are awaiting review by an officer. All information received must be examined before a file can be forwarded to the Judge for a decision. Please be advised that your file is being processed according to policy and that you will be contacted if further information is required.

Best Regards,
(I delete her name)

Citizenship & Immigration Officer | Conseillère citoyenneté et immigration
ATL - CIC Halifax NS | ATL - CIC Halifax, N.-É.
Citizenship and Immigration Canada | Citoyenneté et Immigration Canada
1741 Brunswick Street, Suite B110 Halifax NS B3J 3X8 | 1741, rue Brunswick, bureau B110 Halifax NS B3J 3X8
Office | Bureau CIC Halifax
( I delete her e-mail)
Facsimile | Télécopieur 902-426-4241
Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada



After this post, I have to go now. I will come back to this site to finish writing my story when I have more times and in the mood to write.

Bye for now,

 

[luckychai]

I went to see my immigration consultant to inform him and he gave me all the documents regarding my citizenship application. He made all the copies from the disc which contained the RQ supporting documents that I gave him in 2013. And all the evidences that he had contacted the IRCC in my behalf numerous times through e-mail. It was absolutely amazing to me how much effort that he put. I saw e-mail back and forth between them since 2013-2016, and it was like a broken record sentence

“the application is pending due to the applicant’s background check”.


When I first met my lawyer, I gave her all the documents, also recent ATIP September 2016. I also gave her the detail about my citizenship application verbally. She said she would need some time to look through everything. The next day, she e-mail me that I had a strong case but she cannot guarantee a success. I was aware of the fact that no lawyers in Canada can guarantee the result.


First part of mandamus was my lawyer wrote a formal letter to the IRCC, and they responded almost immediately. But, my lawyer was not satisfied with the answer so she filed the writ of mandamus. She sent me the copy around October 26, 2016. And, guess what?

There is suddenly a movement on my file; the IRCC sent me a letter to see the citizenship judge for the hearing.

The letter stated the name of the citizenship judge, the place, the time and the reason why I had to meet him.


While I was very delighted that my filed had been moved, I was also very concerned about the fee of my lawyer. I was alone in Canada: and what about if the citizenship judge refused my application after the hearing? Then, I would have no choice but to appeal to the federal court. I was already had some kind of mental issues and on the medication, that thought really distressed me a lot. I decided to talk to my sister in Thailand and at first she didn’t agree taking the IRCC to the federal court was a good idea. She thought it was kind of wasting money, but I thought otherwise.


I was thinking about to acquire some large amount of money just in case if I had to go to the federal court. I begged my sister to buy me a cheapest airplane ticket to Thailand. She was able to find a good deal flight through her sources. The reason that I had to go back to Thailand because I believed it was much better to ask for large amount of money face to face rather than on the phone. The chances always different when you do it in person.

Once I was in Thailand at that time, I started to talk to my mother, father, siblings, aunts, relatives about gathering the money for the lawyer. As I mentioned before that I first went for the big name immigration law firm, and they suggested the idea around 10,000 Canadian dollars to fight off in the federal court. I didn’t think I need that much because I already paid partially to the lawyer; I was thinking about 5,000- 7,000 Canadian dollars.

All my parents, siblings, relatives tried to help me as much as they could after I expressed my desperation to them.

 

[luckychai]

My mother had to sell some of her jewelries for me especially.

I knew she didn’t have a lot of money. It put tears in my eyes; and her words even made me feel more emotional. They were “if becoming a Canadian citizen is so extremely important to you, then I have to do what a mother supposed to do”.

I was able to raise money from everyone around 7,000 dollars with my very best effort. I have realized long ago that my parents will always love and care for me deeply and unconditionally. They would never abandon me when I desperately need help. There is a sharp pain in my heart; it is like someone put the pin right to my skin as I am typing to tell you guys my story.


I returned back to Canada one week before the hearing. I met my lawyer first in the office in order to discuss something. I also met my lawyer’s colleague whom was another immigration lawyer. She would be with me in the hearing because my lawyer would not be available that day.

In December 14, 2016 I was arrived in St.Clair immigration office 15 minutes before the actual appointment. My lawyer also appeared before right before the appointment except the citizenship judge. We showed the appointment letter and the clerk showed us the seat.


While we were waiting, my lawyer (Pat) advised me something. She told me to answer the citizenship judge everything that he would ask even some questions may not be relevant. And, don’t start to lecture him what the law is. That made me laugh.

She said she doesn’t mind me doing that to her because she knew me. She also pointed out the fact that the citizenship judge also has the power over me even we can challenge the decision in the federal court. But, it would take more time. Therefore, it’s a better idea not to go there.


We also discussed the amount of such time that the IRCC has taken on my application, and we came down into one point. That was if we didn’t file the mandamus; they would never settle the case by calling the hearing on December 14, 2016. My lawyer and I couldn’t agree more on that.


The citizenship judge arrived 35 minutes late, it was unprofessional of him. He said it was some kind of traffic. If it was me whom arrived 35 minutes late; he could, would have not accepted that. And, we might have rescheduled the new appointment. Anyway, we went to the small office for the hearing. He introduced himself and my lawyer introduced herself. The first thing he mentioned was “you must have wondered why your application has been taking so long”. My responded was “I couldn’t wait to hear the answer.


Then, he told me the IRCC had some concern about my tourist visa to Hungary was turned down in 2010. Therefore, there was an investigation about that.

I couldn’t believe my ears what I heard. It was so…. very lame excuse for them to come up with. The story was I applied for a tourist visa to visit Hungary in Hungary embassy in Thailand around October 2010 along with other 3-4 people as a small tour group; our applications were rejected. We didn’t meet the requirements. And, I got a stamp of rejection on the back of my passport.

When I returned back to Canada in March 2011 for the citizenship test, the CBSA had asked me the reason why my visa was rejected. I told them the truth.


I mean come on what in the world has got to do with my Canadian citizenship application?????

The incident happened in 2010; so you took six years to investigate that??????

Do they actually believe that I was born yesterday or the day before? No one with connected brain-self would believe that statement.


It was all about my personal background check that you were aiming for, wasn’t it?

You knew you couldn’t say it because you knew you couldn’t take it personal. You used my tourist visa rejection as an excuse to cover your real motive.

I mean I didn’t have to be genius to figure that out, all I need was common sense. I have sensed long ago, but I didn’t know that I could hire a lawyer to take you to federal court.



The IRCC is so full of baloney and I mean it. Absolutely full of baloney.




**** I will come back here and write again tomorrow or the next day ****

 

[ZingyDNA]

So it took 'em 5 years to investigate a visa refusal? OMFG... It's almost like they had forgotten your application in some office corner and your mandamus forced them to find it.

 

[luckychai]

So it took 'em 5 years to investigate a visa refusal? OMFG... It's almost like they had forgotten your application in some office corner and your mandamus forced them to find it.

That was the citizenship judge told me but I didn't believe him at all. It was about my personal life that the IRCC tried to investigate. But, they could't say it. When you finish reading my story you will understand in the end.

 

[luckychai]

To continue with my story,

Anyway, I didn’t response to his comment. Then, he stated he would judge me only on residency requirements 1095 days out of 4 years period. It would be from November 2005-November 2009. That was it, it was his only job to consider that part of my citizenship application. He made it very clear from the beginning.

My lawyer just kept on writing notes (I believe she took the notes about our conversation). I explained to him every detail about my activity life during the relevant period. I also showed him the evidence of my residency in Canada such as employment record, bank statement from 2005-2010, health card used, housing lease in both my name and my ex-Canadian common law partner’ name.


I also showed my passports which shown the stamps of my entries to Canada. Actually, it was in my file long ago because I submitted all that in the end of March 2011. The local immigration in Halifax must have been satisfied with my evidence because they didn’t call for the citizenship judge hearing at that time. It stated on the ATIP “citizenship judge hearing is not required in 2011”.

If it wasn’t required at that time, why is required in 2016 after I filed the mandamus? They were the one whom told me my background check was the only issue.


Anyway, the citizenship judge couldn’t dispute anything about my RQ evidence and he didn’t dispute anything. I even had an affidavit from my ex-Canadian common law partner to confirm my living with him at that time. Then, he went on and on asking about my personal life with my Dutch ex-spouse in Europe in 2013.

Not only that, he would also asked me lots of irrelevant questions about my personal life from 2010-2012.

I mean come on he was the one whom told me he would be only interested with my residency in Canada during 2005-2009. Then, he would ask me some question back and forth in 2005-2006 before I became a permanent resident. He said it was not a test of memory but it was a test of what he called credibility.


And he even asked me some petty questions in 2006 and if I couldn’t remember it he would imply that my credibility was not good. I mean come on how was I supposed to remember every single detail that happened almost 10 years ago? Especially you wait for such a long time after I had a citizenship test in March 2011. I know that he worked for the IRCC and it was his job to find the reasons to refuse my application. But, as a citizenship judge, you have to be objective. Am I right?

 

[luckychai]

He also asked me when I left Canada after I became a permanent resident in October 2007. I told him I never left the country at that time. Then, he asked me how come? He said the applicant supposed to leave the country when they become a permanent resident if they applied to be one in Canada. My lawyer had to intervene “not with the family class”. How could a citizenship judge didn’t know that? How could he become a citizenship judge when he didn’t know the immigration rules very well?


When we almost finished the hearing, he asked me the reason of my separation with my ex-Canadian partner. He also asked me a detail which I couldn’t answer him. Therefore, I said “I don’t know”. Then, he said my credibility was not very high. He made a conclusion that he had 60 days to make a decision. He said there were three doors for me.

First, he could approve my application and the IRCC could still challenge his decision. Second, he could refuse my application and I could challenge his decision. Third, I could withdraw the application and re-apply again.


In the end, he asked me and my lawyer if we had any questions. We said “No”. He said he would make a decision within 60 days and he stated in the end that he had some concern with my credibility.

He had a smirk on his face after he mentioned my credibility.

If I could wipe off the smirk on his face and walk away legally, I would have done that right after the hearing.

His smirk really bothered me for the next 60 days.

 

[luckychai]

Pat and I went to the coffee shop and sit there for a moment after the hearing. I expressed my frustration to her. I told her the citizenship judge was not being objective to me. And, he tried to find any reasons that he could find to refuse my application. Pat had a different idea. She told me I answered his questions very well, and she thought I did a good job. I really didn’t know whether she meant it or she was just being supportive. We were discussing and analyzing about the hearing. In the end, she told me we should wait for the decision rather than making speculation.


On December 19, 2016 I sent an e-mail to my lawyer. This is what I wrote.


First, I hope you had a nice week off and I am glad that you are back to the office.



I would like to tell you briefly about the hearing. Pat told me afterward that I answered the questions quite well during the hearing. However, I felt quite different and I didn’t have a chance to tell many important points. I felt the citizenship judge tried to find any reasons to reject my application.



Pat also told me she couldn’t see the reason that he would refuse my application, but I still didn’t get that kind of impression in the end of hearing. I hope Pat is right, and I am wrong.

Anyway, there’s a saying it goes “hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

I know, God knows and my Buddha knows that I was in Canada more than 1095 days before I submit the application; especially my evidence (such as my bank statement, my health record by using the health card) was proven, then he couldn’t ignore the fact and deny my application. If he does, then he breaks the citizenship act and abuses the system. I will fight for my right until the end and seek for punitive damage. That’s it for today. As I mentioned above “hope for the best and prepare for the worst”.

I will prepare the arguments base on what I think that he might use them against me just in case he turned me down.

you can't imagine how anxious and suffering I am at this moment.

Thanks for listening I should say reading.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is her response.


Hi (my name)


I read the notes from the hearing and I am appalled at some of the questions that the Judge was asking you. It appears he is trying to look for reasons to find you not credible about your physical presence in Canada. However, you do have some strong evidence to show that you were in Canada.

For now, it is a good idea to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. Pat and I have already started thinking about some arguments in case we need to appeal the decision.

Also, my colleague, ( the name of the person) is going to send you an ATIP consent form as we would like to obtain a complete copy of your citizenship application.

Thanks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


*** I will try to come back here tomorrow or the next day to continue with my story***
**** And I will try to finish my whole story by the end of this month****

 

[unsvn.it]

I'm sorry to hear what you suffered in the process of applying citizenship. Luckily that you got it eventually. Now you have had the citizenship, I wish you all the best with your new journey!

 

[ZingyDNA]

That was the citizenship judge told me but I didn't believe him at all. It was about my personal life that the IRCC tried to investigate. But, they could't say it. When you finish reading my story you will understand in the end.

You know what? Now I think about it, 5 years to investigate a visa refusal is NOT outside of the realm of possibility, especially around the time of your application. IRCC (called CIC back then) had a lot of citizenship applications stuck for years for various reasons. Most of them got RQ'd but there are other strange reasons. I had a co-worker a couple of years ago who had his citizenship application stuck for almost 4 years and counting. He said he got test and interview very soon, like within a year, but then they ask him to translate something in his passport, and his application became "non-routine" and stuck there every since! I left that company so I don't know if he's still stuck or not! A visa refusal should be more complex to investigate than a simple translation, so with the way they worked back then it was possible to take years. Note that it's not just CSIS that would investigate this for security, CIC would also investigate for physical residence and chance of misrepresentation. Fortunately nowadays they work better on preventing applications from stuck for that long.

I understand you face many challenges in life due to your sexual orientation. But sometimes that makes you very sensitive to things that are actually not there. Canada is a very open and tolerant country and its government treats everyone equally. It's possible that your citizenship officer disliked your life style thus questioned your credibility, which caused further investigation. Back then they were inefficient processing "non-routine" applications and many of them fell through the cracks and got stuck. But that in no way shows any discrimination against any group of people. Everyone could of gotten stuck if they were unlucky.

That single officer's view, if there WAS a sentiment against you, was against CIC and the Canadian government's policy. It's understandable that you feel the judge's scrutinization came from, again, resentment to your life style, but that may not actually be the case. As a judge that's what he's supposed to do and you did have an usual case, even that's totally caused by CIC's incompetence. In the end, he did rule in your favor, didn't he? Some of the detail you provided, like him not knowing you can become PR without leaving Canada, is normal as I feel - you can be an expert in a field, but that doesn't mean you remember every single detail. Most people would become PR by leaving the country (or flagpolling), and that's most cases the judge had been dealing with.

I hope you'll be at peace with this outcome. It's unfortunate you had to go through all this but there are some things in life that you can't do anything about. At least they're supposed to have a better system now, so cases like yours will hopeful not happen.

 

[luckychai]

I'm sorry to hear what you suffered in the process of applying citizenship. Luckily that you got it eventually. Now you have had the citizenship, I wish you all the best with your new journey!

Thanks

 

[luckychai]

You know what? Now I think about it, 5 years to investigate a visa refusal is NOT outside of the realm of possibility, especially around the time of your application. IRCC (called CIC back then) had a lot of citizenship applications stuck for years for various reasons. Most of them got RQ'd but there are other strange reasons. I had a co-worker a couple of years ago who had his citizenship application stuck for almost 4 years and counting. He said he got test and interview very soon, like within a year, but then they ask him to translate something in his passport, and his application became "non-routine" and stuck there every since! I left that company so I don't know if he's still stuck or not! A visa refusal should be more complex to investigate than a simple translation, so with the way they worked back then it was possible to take years. Note that it's not just CSIS that would investigate this for security, CIC would also investigate for physical residence and chance of misrepresentation. Fortunately nowadays they work better on preventing applications from stuck for that long.

I understand you face many challenges in life due to your sexual orientation. But sometimes that makes you very sensitive to things that are actually not there. Canada is a very open and tolerant country and its government treats everyone equally. It's possible that your citizenship officer disliked your life style thus questioned your credibility, which caused further investigation. Back then they were inefficient processing "non-routine" applications and many of them fell through the cracks and got stuck. But that in no way shows any discrimination against any group of people. Everyone could of gotten stuck if they were unlucky.

That single officer's view, if there WAS a sentiment against you, was against CIC and the Canadian government's policy. It's understandable that you feel the judge's scrutinization came from, again, resentment to your life style, but that may not actually be the case. As a judge that's what he's supposed to do and you did have an usual case, even that's totally caused by CIC's incompetence. In the end, he did rule in your favor, didn't he? Some of the detail you provided, like him not knowing you can become PR without leaving Canada, is normal as I feel - you can be an expert in a field, but that doesn't mean you remember every single detail. Most people would become PR by leaving the country (or flagpolling), and that's most cases the judge had been dealing with.

I hope you'll be at peace with this outcome. It's unfortunate you had to go through all this but there are some things in life that you can't do anything about. At least they're supposed to have a better system now, so cases like yours will hopeful not happen.

You are entitled to your opinion but I have to disagree with you in many things you said. I would like to exchange the point of view with you later when I finish my whole story.


Anyway, thanks for your opinion
Talk to you later

By the way, yes the citizenship judge did rule in my favor but not because he wanted too. I know he wanted to disapprove my application, but he couldn't do it because his hands were tied by the regulations .

 

[jsm0085]

Thanks

OMG. Is this a recent or historical development?

 

[luckychai]

I was extremely anxious while I was waiting for the decision. I ordered the record of my travel history from CBSA without acknowledging the IRCC already had it on my file. On around January 31, 2017 I received the report from CBSA and faxed to my lawyer. I also faxed to the St.Clair immigration office attention to the citizenship judge. I also brought it there in person. My lawyer also got the whole file of my citizenship application and forwarded to me.


This is what she wrote.


I am glad you brought it to their attention.


I just received a copy of your file from immigration. It appears they already had copies of your travel history report. It also appears that there is a stamp in your passport showing your re-entry into Canada on February 24, 2009. So I am unsure as to why the Judge said there was no record of your re-entry into Canada!


Although a redacted decision form is included in your file, it does not appear that a decision has been formally made yet.


Please let me know if you want to come in to talk about the contents of your file. However, there is nothing in your file to show why you would not have met the residency requirements.

Thanks


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Yes, I went to her office and we discussed about my case. She had my whole citizenship file in front of her. She told me she had no idea why the IRCC had been reluctant to make the decision. Then, she turned to the page where she saw the cover of the book. The book that my ex-spouse wrote about me. The IRCC attached it into my citizenship file and the citizenship judge also asked me some questions about the book. I also told my lawyer briefly about the detail of it and my personal life, my background in my birth country.


I told her the truth and I cannot write the detail in this forum because it’s too personal.

Her response was “even your personal life seems weird, looks weird, but you have met the requirements to become a Canadian citizen and your personal life doesn’t fall into the prohibitions of becoming a Canadian citizen.

The IRCC cannot take it personal. Sometimes, in life the things may look weird; it doesn’t mean bad. And when you are professional; you shall act like a professional and you shouldn’t take it personal.


I told her let’s suppose for the moment that you were the citizenship judge; what would be the reason to disapprove my application.

She said “none”. She said base on the evidence in front of her, and base on the citizenship Act, she shall grant the citizenship to me.

And if he rejects your application, we are going to fight this case off in the federal court. She dealt with some federal judges in the federal court before and she won some cases; she lost some cases; but she accepted the decisions were fair. The federal judges are way..way..way more professional than the citizenship judge who I dealt with.