Expired PR card in 2012 but need to join University in 2018

[modibaljit]

Hello All,
I received PR status for my family in Dec 2012 but then couldn't go back to Canada due to some unforeseen reasons. This means that the PR card expired in Dec 2017 as I couldn't meet RO.

At that time my both daughters were minor.

But Now my elder daughter intends to join Toronto University in Aug 2018. I request anyone who can help me with the options I have.

I am ready to spend again for reapplying but am not sure whether this would be acceptable or not.

Thanks
Baljit

 

[rish888]

Do you still qualify for Express Entry?

If you do, I'd recommend you apply for PR again for yourself and your family.

Once you get an ITA (Invitation to Apply) you can renounce your current PR status (merely a formality) and get a new PR status.

Your daughter does have some other options in case you no longer qualify, but if you do, applying for PR again is the best course of action.

 

[modibaljit]

Do you still qualify for Express Entry?

If you do, I'd recommend you apply for PR again for yourself and your family.

Once you get an ITA (Invitation to Apply) you can renounce your current PR status (merely a formality) and get a new PR status.

Your daughter does have some other options in case you no longer qualify, but if you do, applying for PR again is the best course of action.

Thanks Rish for your valuable feedback. I am checking on Express Entry requirements but see less chances due to my age. I am 49+ plus now and don't get enough points

I might also look at SINP program.

am finding myself in dilemma..

 

[rish888]

First off, all of you are still PR's. Yes you are not in compliance with your residency obligation, but you are still a PR.

Second, your daughter has a good chance of being able to return to Canada without having her PR status terminated for residency obligation non-compliance.

She'd need to claim the H&C (Humanitarian and Compassionate) ground of being "removed as a minor." (Specifically that her departure and continued absence was involuntary and not in her control, and that she's trying to return at the earliest available opportunity.)

There are 2 ways she can do this:

1) Apply for a PRTD at a Canadian Embassy.

2) Enter Canada via the U.S. Canada land border. (This doesn't need a PRTD.)

I encourage you to read this thread, there's an interesting discussion on which option is better and the processes to be followed:

https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/left-canada-as-a-child-pr-residency-obligation-violation.483821/

Specifically read reply #15 by member Dpenabill to help you determine which method is better.

Also, does your daughter have a SIN number and her landing papers?​

 

[rish888]

Also read this if you're considering land border entry: (Dpenbill explains the POE processes in greater detail in his post, this is a condensed version.)

Practical stuff surrounding a land border entry:

How it Works:

Fly to JFK/NYC.

Rent a car from a company that will let you drop it off in Toronto. (Most major companies should allow this.)

Drive to Toronto. (There are a couple of border crossings you could use but from what I've read most tend to use Rainbow Bridge/Niagara.)

Drop off the car in Toronto. Take a train/fly to your final destination.

If you don't drive, fly to Buffalo airport via JFK. Take a taxi to the border. Cross as a pedestrian. From the Canadian side take a taxi to the nearest train station/airport. Fly/taken a train to your final destination.

What Happens at the Border?

1 of 4 things:

1) The first officer you encounter at the booth lets you in without asking any questions.

2) The first officer directs you to Secondary Inspection. The officer at secondary inspection hears your H&C reasons and lets you into Canada.

3) The officer at Secondary doesn't agree with your H&C reasons, so he prepares a report. The report gets forwarded to a senior officer (Minister's delegate) who reads the report, asks you to explain your H&C reasons, finds in your favor, and lets you enter Canada.

4) The Minister's Delegate doesn't agree with the validity of your H&C reasons. He agrees with the report and issues you a Departure Order. (An order terminating your PR status.) You will still be allowed to enter Canada, but you will need file a notification of appeal within 30 days.

Note that in all the scenarios you can enter Canada. A Permanent Resident CANNOT be denied entry into Canada.

Which Scenarios are Good? Which are Bad?

Scenarios 1 to 3 are positive. Your PR status will remain safe as long as you don't leave Canada for 2 years. (At which point you'll be back in compliance with your residency obligation.)

Scenario 4 is not good. You can still enter Canada but you need to appeal to retain your PR status. It takes a year or two to get a hearing date. At the hearing you will either retain your PR status or loose it. If you loose the appeal you'll need to leave Canada.

Can I/Should I Travel Abroad or Renew My PR Card?

If your encounter scenarios 1-3 you must not renew your PR card for 2 years. You must not travel for 2 years. I cannot stress this enough.

Note that your PR status is not the same as your PR card. PR status is like citizenship, it's permanent and you keep it for life.

The PR card is like a passport, it's just a travel document.

A PR does not need to have a PR card. Your landing papers indicate that you have PR status. (Like a birth certificate indicating your citizenship.)

Your PR status DOES NOT expire with your PR card. You still are, and will continue to remain, a Permanent Resident of Canada, unless you are reported and loose an appeal. (If you choose to appeal.)

If you encounter scenario 4 your PR card will be renewed automatically while you wait for an appeal, but you still shouldn't travel abroad if you'd like to win the appeal. You remain a PR while waiting for your appeal and as such can live, work, and study in Canada.

What Happens Once I'm Inside Canada?

You'll be inside Canada as a Permanent Resident, and therefore are entitled to all the rights associated with your status, including the right to live, study, and work without restriction.

Do you have a SIN card? You cannot work without this.

To get essential documentation. (Driver's license and health card) your CoPR (landing papers) and foreign passport will suffice in the Province of Ontario.

 

[modibaljit]

First off, all of you are still PR's. Yes you are not in compliance with your residency obligation, but you are still a PR.

Second, your daughter has a good chance of being able to return to Canada without having her PR status terminated for residency obligation non-compliance.

She'd need to claim the H&C (Humanitarian and Compassionate) ground of being "removed as a minor." (Specifically that her departure and continued absence was involuntary and not in her control, and that she's trying to return at the earliest available opportunity.)

There are 2 ways she can do this:

1) Apply for a PRTD at a Canadian Embassy.

2) Enter Canada via the U.S. Canada land border. (This doesn't need a PRTD.)

I encourage you to read this thread, there's an interesting discussion of which option is better and the processes to be followed:

https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/left-canada-as-a-child-pr-residency-obligation-violation.483821/

Specifically read reply #15 by member Dpenabill to help you determine which method is better.

Also, does your daughter have a SIN number and he landing papers?​

Yes. My daughter has SIN number.

When we applied for Canada universities, we mentioned as 'Domestic' student. I am not aware what would Uni authorities ask us before we finalize the application and pay fees as such. Are they going to ask if she has a valid PR card?

On the point of physically going there, I don't know how either she flies there or how do we go there to settle her down?

If she can't fly then, should we just send her alone through land route?

 

[rish888]

Yes. My daughter has SIN number.

When we applied for Canada universities, we mentioned as 'Domestic' student. I am not aware what would Uni authorities ask us before we finalize the application and pay fees as such. Are they going to ask if she has a valid PR card?

On the point of physically going there, I don't know how either she flies there or how do we go there to settle her down?

If she can't fly then, should we just send her alone through land route?

I'd choose the land route over a PRTD. It used to be that she could go to the embassy and apply for a PRTD and it's have a 99% chance of being approved, but recent cases have shown that it's more like a flip of a coin if you go through an embassy. This is why I prefer the land route.

Her landing papers will be enough for University of Toronto. Her landing papers will also be enough to get a health card and a Driver's license/Canadian photo ID in Ontario.

You don't need to send her alone. You can escort he up to the American side of the border, then from there she'd need to cross by herself. If you have any relatives in Canada they could pick her up from the Canadian side, or else she'd need to find her own way to Toronto. (A taxi to a train/bus station then a train/bus to Toronto.)

As far as settling her down goes, she'll need to do this on her own. If you have some family in Canada it could help. If not, I'd recommend that she stay in university housing for at least the first year to have some sort of support system and to make the transition easier.

Also keep in mind she can't exit the country for 2 years, so she'll need to arrange something to do in the summer. This would also mean that y'all won't be able to see each other unless you renounce your PR and take a visitor's visa to go to Canada.

 

[canuck78]

How much time did your daughter spend in Canada? There was at least one recent case where the H&C was refused because the child has barely spent any time in Canada and it had been during elementary school I believe.

 

[Rob_TO]

Also keep in mind she can't exit the country for 2 years, so she'll need to arrange something to do in the summer. This would also mean that y'all won't be able to see each other unless you renounce your PR and take a visitor's visa to go to Canada.

It depends, if she got a formal decision on her H&C reason at the border by the Minister's Delegate (so their approved H&C decision would go on her official record), then she would be able to apply for PR card renewal immediately upon entering Canada.

 

[rish888]

How much time did your daughter spend in Canada? There was at least one recent case where the H&C was refused because the child has barely spent any time in Canada and it had been during elementary school I believe.

Just a note, that denial stemmed from a PRTD application.

The land border seems to have good odds. One of the members on this forum, @BOYX, recently (last August) entered successfully via the land border.

If not for anything, getting a Departure Order at the land border is a multi-step process involving a PIL officer, a secondary officer, and a minister's delegate. If the person enters before turning 18 (say 17), there's the added benefit of getting a hearing with the ID. (as a Minister's delegate does not have the jurisdiction to issue a Departure Order against an unaccompanied minor regardless of the reason.)

To date I've not found one IAD appeal stemming from a minor reported for RO non-compliance at a land border. (Only applies to minors who elected to travel without their parents, does not include family appeals)

Another difference I've noticed between the H&C guidelines in the ENF and OP manuals. Whereas the ENF manual urges officers to consider whether a person:

Departed involuntary

Left before turning 22

Returned upon turning 22

(probably 22 due to IRCC's definition of child)

The OP manual reminds officers that intent is no longer a determinative factor in the cases of individuals who left as minors. It simply states that officers should conduct a thorough assessment of all the H&C factors.

My recommendation to the OP would be the land border, but it's really up to you.

 

[rish888]

It depends, if she got a formal decision on her H&C reason at the border by the Minister's Delegate (so their approved H&C decision would go on her official record), then she would be able to apply for PR card renewal immediately upon entering Canada.

A formal decision does not reset the RO clock, does not guarantee a PR card application will be approved, and does not mean international travel will be risk free.

While a formal decision can go a long way towards making a successful PR card application, the MD's decision is not binding on the officer who reviews PR card applications.

Should the OP manage to get a PR card and decides to travel abroad, chances are good that any re-entry will be issue free, but if the BSO conducts a residency examination she can always be reported for RO non-compliance.

The IAD case Wan v. Canada (MCI) is a must read. The link's below:

https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/irb/doc/2008/2008canlii43707/2008canlii43707.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAQd2FuIGxhcCBoaW0ga3JpcwAAAAAB&resultIndex=6

Further info on the impact of a positive PRTD/Minister's Delegate decision can be found here: (It's says that it only applies to PRTD's but it also applies to a positive decision from a Minister's Delegate at a land border.) I urge the OP to read it.

https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/important-misinformation-regarding-prtds-on-h-c-grounds.536894/

 

[Rob_TO]

A formal decision does not reset the RO clock, does not guarantee a PR card application will be approved, and does not mean international travel will be risk free.

While a formal decision can go a long way towards making a successful PR card application, the MD's decision is not binding on the officer who reviews PR card applications.

Should the OP manage to get a PR card and decides to travel abroad, chances are good that any re-entry will be issue free, but if the BSO conducts a residency examination she can always be reported for RO non-compliance.

The IAD case Wan v. Canada (MCI) is a must read. The link's below:

https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/irb/doc/2008/2008canlii43707/2008canlii43707.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAQd2FuIGxhcCBoaW0ga3JpcwAAAAAB&resultIndex=6

Further info on the impact of a positive PRTD/Minister's Delegate decision can be found here: (It's says that it only applies to PRTD's but it also applies to a positive decision from a Minister's Delegate at a land border.) I urge the OP to read it.

https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/important-misinformation-regarding-prtds-on-h-c-grounds.536894/

True, it's not guaranteed. However it should be very likely a PR card renewal would be successful, since logically it doesn't make sense a H&C reason would granted by one visa officer, then completely turned around and refused by another.

The successful appeal you posted above similarly addresses this:
The two visa officers did not give their reasons for exercising their discretion positively in one case and negatively in the other, and the panel believes that all of this is very confusing to any permanent resident.

If the OP here were to come back to Canada and immediately become integrated into Canadian society (i.e. living here permanently, attending school, working, involved in the community, etc), I don't think they would have any problems if they took a vacation outside Canada after getting a new PR card. If a CBSA or IRCC officer wanted to exert their own interpretation of their situation and report them, IMO the case would end up similar to one you posted with good chance of a successful appeal (not counting the hassle of appealing in the first place). I think the worst case scenarios of actual rules you allude to leading to revoking of PR status within 2 years of a H&C claim, are those that abuse a positive H&C claim by returning to Canada to renew PR card then immediately leaving again for an extended time.

You are right though that nothing is guaranteed and the only 100% sure way is to not apply for PR card renewal or leave for 2 years. However considering how previous cases have gone in similar situations, it may be considered safe or an acceptable risk if someone really needed to travel during the initial 2 years back.

I wonder if you had ever seen a case reported of a PR card renewal being denied after a successful PR TD approval?

 

[rish888]

True, it's not guaranteed. However it should be very likely a PR card renewal would be successful, since logically it doesn't make sense a H&C reason would granted by one visa officer, then completely turned around and refused by another.

The successful appeal you posted above similarly addresses this:
The two visa officers did not give their reasons for exercising their discretion positively in one case and negatively in the other, and the panel believes that all of this is very confusing to any permanent resident.

If the OP here were to come back to Canada and immediately become integrated into Canadian society (i.e. living here permanently, attending school, working, involved in the community, etc), I don't think they would have any problems if they took a vacation outside Canada after getting a new PR card. If a CBSA or IRCC officer wanted to exert their own interpretation of their situation and report them, IMO the case would end up similar to one you posted with good chance of a successful appeal (not counting the hassle of appealing in the first place). I think the worst case scenarios of actual rules you allude to leading to revoking of PR status within 2 years of a H&C claim, are those that abuse a positive H&C claim by returning to Canada to renew PR card then immediately leaving again for an extended time.

You are right though that nothing is guaranteed and the only 100% sure way is to not apply for PR card renewal or leave for 2 years. However considering how previous cases have gone in similar situations, it may be considered safe or an acceptable risk if someone really needed to travel during the initial 2 years back.

I wonder if you had ever seen a case reported of a PR card renewal being denied after a successful PR TD approval?

Completely agree that the chance of something going wrong is extremely minute. Just wanted to distinguish between what usually happens and what can happen.

 

[Buletruck]

I wonder if you had ever seen a case reported of a PR card renewal being denied after a successful PR TD approval

I remember seeing one last year where the OP got a PRTD, came back and immediately applied for his PR renewal and it went to secondary and a residency review. Don't remember if anything became of that or he came back to say if there were further issues.

 

[Rob_TO]

I remember seeing one last year where the OP got a PRTD, came back and immediately applied for his PR renewal and it went to secondary and a residency review. Don't remember if anything became of that or he came back to say if there were further issues.

Secondary review would be expected with any PR card renewal app that included H&C reasons, PR TD or not. Of course the key is what the final determination was.