Residency Obligation for PR - Some family - Re-sponsor?

[kwyatt75]

Ok, this will be a bit long, but if anyone has experience or knowledge about this, I’d be glad to hear you input. So here it goes,

I applied for PR for myself as the primary with my wife and 3 children back before Express Entry. It was uncertain how things would go and I was worried that it would be more difficult for me to get PR after the new system came into place. Harper wasn’t as immigrant friendly as the current government, so I was a bit worried and wanted to get it while I knew I could. I would have liked to move ASAP to Canada, but it was uncertain to do so as early as I would be approved. The processing went much faster than I thought it would and we were approved and all landed (short/quick stay of 12 days) in Canada back in June of 2016, 19 days before our COPRs expired. We returned to the US and my wife and I continued our jobs and the kids their schooling. We live in the US now and are all US Citizens by birth.

We returned to and stayed in Canada for about a month and a week this past summer (2017) as well. However, we returned to the US again and my wife continued her teaching job and the kids their school. One of the main reasons we have not yet made the permanent move is because my two older children are in high school. The oldest (son) is a senior this year and will be graduating. The second (son) is a sophomore and has the rest of this year plus two years to graduate. They go to one of the top schools in the US so they want to finish at their high school. The third child (daughter) is in 5th grade, so there really are no issues on her side to prevent a move before she starts high school, or even middle school.

My concern is the residency obligation of 730 days in the past 5 years to retain PR status.

It isn’t an issue for me as I can make sure that I spend enough time in country to meet the 730.

My daughter wouldn’t be a problem because by the time both of my sons graduate high school, she would move to Canada and then we could renew her PR Card once we know we have evidence to prove her 730.

My oldest son’s PR card doesn’t expire until July 2021, so he wouldn’t have issues entering Canada under his card. He will be staring university studies at the local university in the US and do his first 2 years getting some basics and wait to move until after his younger brother graduates 2 years later. Unfortunately, he, even if he went to Canada during every possible break wouldn’t meet the 730 and I know that could raise a flag when he does cross. Provided he crosses without a problem, he can just wait until he meets the 730 to apply for a new PR card. He won’t turn 22 until October 2022. 22 is the cutoff for the definition of a dependent child, so in the worst-case scenario, I could re-sponsor him to become a PR again. However, I know you don’t officially lose PR status when your card expires, but is only if an adjudicator determines you are not, after an inquiry to your RO, a removal order is made against you, or you voluntarily renounce your PR status. I’m wondering if that might be the best for his case – renounce his PR and then I re-sponsor him. I worry about the risk though as there is no guarantee that he would be re-granted PR status under that sponsorship. Any thoughts knowledge or experiences that might help me with this?

My second son, may have a similar situation so, renouncing and re-applying through sponsorship might be the best option for him. He would barely be 18 so, no age issues with him. He has a great chance I think of drawing attention when he crosses because he does not have a PR card. We all got our cards, but his photo somehow didn’t work and they sent us a letter to send in a new one. Unfortunately, since we were out of country we didn’t get that letter until after it was too late. Now the only option would be to use the regular process to apply for one, but given our current circumstances, that isn’t going to happen. He would have to apply once he moves there permanently. He’s the only one of us without a PR card. He does want to start his first year of university in Canada though, and I think that is going to be problematic since he only has a COPR, no PR card. Thoughts, knowledge, experiences?

I might have to re-sponsor my wife too if she stays with the kids in the US as they are finishing high school. I hate to do the renouncing path for any of them as there is no guarantee that they will be re-given PR status. Would it be better to just get them in country and wait until we can prove 730 to apply for new (and for my middle son, new) PR cards? Any thought suggestions, experiences or knowledge about any of this would be greatly appreciated.

I want nothing more than for my family to end up in Canada permanently and eventually gain Citizenship. It is just the timing that is a bit messed up. I think that if I can retain my PR then I might be able to save the rest of my family through sponsorship, but the CIC page is a bit vague and I feel uneasy about it all.

Please don’t pass judgement on my situation or suggest that we all just move right now to avoid problems. I would move to Canada today if I could but my sons don’t want to until after HS and my wife won’t until they both graduate.

Thanks!

 

[sns204]

I'm sure some of the experts will weigh in here at some point, but given that you have only been PR for 18 months (540ish days, I didn't count), I'm wondering what would happen if your younger son just applied for a new card. At the moment, you haven't really violated the residency requirement because you haven't been out of country more than 1095 days in the 5 years since receiving PR. Who's to say that the family isn't deciding to move up in two months and stay forever? Under question 26 you can list the circumstances surrounding why he never received his first card.

 

[rish888]

There is only one way to retain your PR status 100%. That is to stay the 730 days. Keep in mind the validity of your PR card doesn't matter. Your 5 year clock starts from the day of landing.

The penalty for violating the residency obligation is severe, you will loose your PR status.

Don't be fooled into thinking a valid PR card will let you off the hook, you can have a valid PR card but still loose your PR status if the RO violation is discovered.

Keep in mind that the age requirement has a tendency to change. It was 22 then 19 then back to 22 again. Could very well go back to 19. Don't throw away your PR because there are no assurances.

You older son can finish of his senior year then come to Canada for university. Canada has some fantastic education institutions that all cost under CA$22,000 a year for PR's. This is 1/3 the cost of a top-notch private school in the U.S. Not only can you older son study for cheap, he can also keep his PR safe.

As for your younger son the only assured way to retain his PR status is to move to Canada. Best time to do this would of course be end of the academic year so he can do Junior and Senior year in Canada. You could always send him to a fancy private Canadian school or a top-notch public school. (look at something that offers IB)

Moving end of the current academic year would allow the whole family to retain their PR status and apply for citizenship in 3 years.

The other option is for the kids to stay in the U.S., roll the dice with their PR, risk getting locked inside Canada for 2 years (if they're lucky), loose their PR altogether (if they're not lucky) ...

Your children need to make a choice on how much their PR means to them, but if the only thing holding you back is that fact that your child is in a good private school, keep in mind Canada is not sub-Saharan Africa. There are plenty of good schools, both public and private.

 

[rish888]

As for the younger son and his never received PR card, he can enter Canada with his CoPR. He can get on a plane on the force of his American passport. At the airport he can enter with CoPR.

Once in Canada he can apply for a new PR card.

 

[Buletruck]

Definitely get your younger son his pr card. You are required to apply in Canada (although it has been pointed out recently someone managed to do it outside of Canada) there doesn’t seem to be a requirement to remain in Canada while it processes. Have it sent to a friend to forward or get a P.O. box and pick it up later.
Renouncing should be an absolute last resort. If you are going to attempt entry without meeting RO, don’t show up as a whole family with everything in tow. If you can get established and the rest of the family joins you later, you can get yourself established.
I’m assuming from “Howdy Eh” your in the south, so cross border commuting for a while for your wife and kids is probably a non starter. But if you could, your family could reside in Canada daily and travel accross the border for school and work until they are ready to make a final move. Might be an effective choice for your younger son and wife. A partial day in Canada is still considered a day in Canada.
Worst case scenario, if you can get established in Canada before the rest of your family comes, if they are reported you can appeal and sponsor again if it comes to a failed appeal. There are some cases where despite not meeting RO, the finding is set aside as they know the spouse will just sponsor them again.
Your older son will need to be careful, as the dependent requirement are like a moving target and can change at any time.

 

[kwyatt75]

You older son can finish of his senior year then come to Canada for university. Canada has some fantastic education institutions that all cost under CA$22,000 a year for PR's. This is 1/3 the cost of a top-notch private school in the U.S. Not only can you older son study for cheap, he can also keep his PR safe.

As for your younger son the only assured way to retain his PR status is to move to Canada. Best time to do this would of course be end of the academic year so he can do Junior and Senior year in Canada. You could always send him to a fancy private Canadian school or a top-notch public school. (look at something that offers IB)

Moving end of the current academic year would allow the whole family to retain their PR status and apply for citizenship in 3 years.

The other option is for the kids to stay in the U.S., roll the dice with their PR, risk getting locked inside Canada for 2 years (if they're lucky), loose their PR altogether (if they're not lucky) ...

Your children need to make a choice on how much their PR means to them, but if the only thing holding you back is that fact that your child is in a good private school, keep in mind Canada is not sub-Saharan Africa. There are plenty of good schools, both public and private.

This is pretty much exactly what I meant when I said, "Please don’t pass judgement on my situation or suggest that we all just move right now to avoid problems. I would move to Canada today if I could but my sons don’t want to until after HS and my wife won’t until they both graduate."

My oldest son doesn't even want to move to Canada at all, but if the rest of the family moves he will have to move. I mean, sure, as an adult over 18, he could chose to stay and try to make his own way on his own, but if we all move I'm sure he will follow and finish university studies there. I know he'll be better off in the long run anyway. There's no way he's going to move up there on his own before us.

It simply isn't an option to go any sooner as my sons and my wife will NOT go for moving until my middle son finishes HS. She teaches at their HS (not a private school, but a magnet public school that ranks in the top 10 schools in the US. I know that in general, schools in Canada are actually better than US schools, but this is just not something I'm going to be able to get my wife to budge on for multiple reasons, not just because the school is good.

My middle son, on the other hand, wants to move to Canada. He wants to go to University in Canada and then go to Med School to be a Doctor where he can help people whether or not they can afford health insurance, unlike in the US.

My daughter wants to move to Canada and could move at any time before a new school year due to her grade.

Given that and reading the responses here, I think my best option will be to make sure I meet my RO to retain my PR and try to re-sponsor them if they happen to lose their status. Believe me, if I could convince my family to move tomorrow and never come back to the US, I would, but that just isn't going to happen. I'm trying to find a way to make it work where we won't lose the ability to live in Canada once they are ready to go.

 

[kwyatt75]

Worst case scenario, if you can get established in Canada before the rest of your family comes, if they are reported you can appeal and sponsor again if it comes to a failed appeal. There are some cases where despite not meeting RO, the finding is set aside as they know the spouse will just sponsor them again.
Your older son will need to be careful, as the dependent requirement are like a moving target and can change at any time.

I think this is going to have to be my best option. Good to know on the appeal/re-sponsoring. Thanks!

 

[kwyatt75]

I'm sure some of the experts will weigh in here at some point, but given that you have only been PR for 18 months (540ish days, I didn't count), I'm wondering what would happen if your younger son just applied for a new card. At the moment, you haven't really violated the residency requirement because you haven't been out of country more than 1095 days in the 5 years since receiving PR. Who's to say that the family isn't deciding to move up in two months and stay forever? Under question 26 you can list the circumstances surrounding why he never received his first card.

Good suggestion. Like you and others have mentioned, I think it will be worth it to go ahead and try to apply for him to get a card. Though, with the US Passport and the COPR document he should be able to fly in if he wants to, I'm thinking he will need the PR card for stuff like going to university and other things. Thanks!

 

[Buletruck]

He can enter in his US passport alone. One of the benefits of being a US citizen. And if they don’t have them, get their SIN as soon as possible.

 

[kwyatt75]

He can enter in his US passport alone. One of the benefits of being a US citizen. And if they don’t have them, get their SIN as soon as possible.

Yes, we all got our SIN within the same week when we landed. I'm questioning now the idea of applying for the PR Card for my son as the imm5644e checklist has as one of the things you have to submit if you are under 18 is a photocopy of school records (report cards, transcripts, attendance records.) which he won't have as he's in school in the US. Unless, I apply at the beginning of the summer and our excuse for not having them is that we were in the US. Not sure how well that would go over or if it would raise red flags.

 

[kwyatt75]

Yes, we all got our SIN within the same week when we landed. I'm questioning now the idea of applying for the PR Card for my son as the imm5644e checklist has as one of the things you have to submit if you are under 18 is a photocopy of school records (report cards, transcripts, attendance records.) which he won't have as he's in school in the US. Unless, I apply at the beginning of the summer and our excuse for not having them is that we were in the US. Not sure how well that would go over or if it would raise red flags.

Actually, now I see that in the imm5445 instructions says,

If you are under the age of 18
A clear and legible photocopy of one (1) of these:

• your birth certificate (showing your name, date of birth, place of birth and the names of your parents or adoptive parents);
• if you have a legal guardian, submit legal documentation issued by a Canadian court which proves guardianship; or
• a photocopy of your school records (report cards, transcripts, attendance records).

So, it seems it's only one of these that is needed. So his US Birth Certificate should suffice on that issue.

 

[canuck78]

Keep in mind if you have to sponsor them again it will take some time and could delay the start of university for your middle child. If your eldest child plans to attend a Canadian university (according to your first post) it would make sense for him to relocate with you and start university in Canada. It is much harder to start a university program halfway through and you wouldn't necessarily get all his transfer credits from the US school. The secondary education system is less flexible than in the US where people can do 2 years at a community college then transfer to a large college.

 

[kwyatt75]

Keep in mind if you have to sponsor them again it will take some time and could delay the start of university for your middle child. If your eldest child plans to attend a Canadian university (according to your first post) it would make sense for him to relocate with you and start university in Canada. It is much harder to start a university program halfway through and you wouldn't necessarily get all his transfer credits from the US school. The secondary education system is less flexible than in the US where people can do 2 years at a community college then transfer to a large college.

Yes, it would, but I know it isn't going to happen. He'll have to take his chances on not having everything transfer. My wife took classes in Canada years ago and the classes transferred to the US. I'm hoping that if he goes to our branch of the University of Texas that most will transfer when he moves. He was already accepted to the University and won't be doing community college. I know not all will transfer, and it may subsequently take him longer to graduate, but I just realistically know he's not going to go until the rest of us move. He has no desire to go away to college, much less all the way to Canada without us. I know to some it will sound crazy, but that's just the situation.

 

[steaky]

My middle son, on the other hand, wants to move to Canada. He wants to go to University in Canada and then go to Med School to be a Doctor where he can help people whether or not they can afford health insurance, unlike in the US.

I don't get it... So everyone including visitors need to have health insurance before they can see a doctor? Unlike Canada, there are no walk-in clinics in the US?

 

[kwyatt75]

I don't get it... So everyone including visitors need to have health insurance before they can see a doctor? Unlike Canada, there are no walk-in clinics in the US?

We have walk in clinics, but can you afford them? In the US, we don't have single-payer healthcare like in Canada. You can go see a doctor whenever you want, but if you don't have healthcare it is horribly expensive. In the US we have some of the highest healthcare costs with outcomes that are not as good in other countries like Canada and much of Europe where there is government funded healthcare. If you get sick in the US and don't have healthcare, you could die from not being able to afford care. That doesn't happen in Canada because everyone has healthcare, whether or not you have a job that provides it for you or if you can afford to buy health insurance on your own. It's one of the great things about Canada. Now, in Canada, visitors (in most cases) are not covered. You are covered if you are a Citizen, a PR, or some other classes of legal immigrant that qualify. Healthcare is a joke in the US. I have good healthcare insurance through my job. For that about $900 a month is taken out of my paychecks for the premium. Then when I go to the doctor, I have co-pays. Most of the time, whatever I have done, like tests etc, aren't covered so I end up getting bills later in the mail for whatever the insurance didn't cover. It's a mafia over here.