Entering Canada with an expired PR card - urgent please help.

[dpenabill]

Has anyone recently tried to enter Canada by land from US with a Canadian PR? What are the typical questions asked? Is it enough if I only show my Canadian PR? Is it possible the officer don't ask question about meeting Residency obligations? I'm wondering if it is possible to enter to Canada with PR and doesn't get questioned if I meet the residency requirements, in case I don't.

Short answer:

There is no general guideline, no way to forecast your risks. It is possible a PR without a PR card and in breach will be waived into Canada without being reported, but there is a real risk to the contrary. The scope of that risk will vary greatly depending on the individual's personal situation and history.


Longer Explanation:

I've been a citizen now for years, so no recent personal experience returning to Canada as a PR.

But there is no doubt: whether a PR will be referred to Secondary and examined about compliance with the PR Residency Obligation depends on the individual, fact-specific situation. The vast majority of PRs returning to Canada are NOT asked about PR RO compliance, because they present a valid PR card and otherwise there is nothing about the PR's situation which even hints there is a PR RO compliance issue.

For a PR who does not have a valid PR card, obviously there is a substantial risk of a PR RO compliance examination. The longer the PR has been abroad, the greater the risk. The longer it has been since the PR last entered Canada the greater the risk. The longer the PR card has been expired the greater the risk. The less apparent ties in Canada the PR has the greater the risk.

In regards to the latter, how the returning PR responds to preliminary questions can dramatically affect the risk of a more probing examination, including whether the PR is asked to complete a written residency questionnaire. The PR's answers to questions about address in Canada, employment or employment history, and such, can either satisfy the officer or lead to more questions. This is about the content of the answers (specific information about employment history for example) AND about how the officer perceives the applicant's demeanor. Obviously, if the officer gets the impression the PR is being evasive or deceptive, things tend to go downhill rather quickly.

In any event, how the border crossing examination will go will depend mostly on you, your history, your facts and circumstances, how you answer the questions, what the answers are to the questions. No one can reliably predict how it will go unless it is a rather clear cut scenario.

Examples of clear cut scenarios:
-- PR with valid PR card driving a car the PR owns which is registered in a Canadian province, and who has periodically or regularly traveled to the states and back: NO PROBLEM, not likely to be asked about PR RO compliance
-- PR without a valid PR card who has been outside Canada for 3+ years: high risk of PR RO compliance questions

In between those scenarios, it will vary and vary greatly. Bottom-line, a PR without a valid PR card who is in breach of the PR RO is at substantial risk for being examined and reported, and losing PR status. The scope of that risk also varies greatly depending on the individual's personal situation and history.

 

[moonlight86]

Thank you for the explanation. If my PR is still valid but I'm in RO breach and a rental car from US going to Canada by land, trying a busy port of entry, is there any chance not to get reported? Has anybody have the same experience recently? I'd appreciate if you share.

Examples of clear cut scenarios:
-- PR with valid PR card driving a car the PR owns which is registered in a Canadian province, and who has periodically or regularly traveled to the states and back: NO PROBLEM, not likely to be asked about PR RO compliance
-- PR without a valid PR card who has been outside Canada for 3+ years: high risk of PR RO compliance questions

In between those scenarios, it will vary and vary greatly. Bottom-line, a PR without a valid PR card who is in breach of the PR RO is at substantial risk for being examined and reported, and losing PR status. The scope of that risk also varies greatly depending on the individual's personal situation and history.

 

[dpenabill]

Thank you for the explanation. If my PR is still valid but I'm in RO breach and a rental car from US going to Canada by land, trying a busy port of entry, is there any chance not to get reported? Has anybody have the same experience recently? I'd appreciate if you share.

Again, I have had no recent personal experience related to this.

Of course there is "a chance," but it would be very, very difficult to quantify that "chance," even relative to broad generalizations, noting however it is probably safe to guess that for a PR in breach of the PR RO, the risk of being reported ranges from elevated to high or very high, depending on personal circumstances.


Longer Answer:

"Any chance" is an incredibly broad concept. Even without a valid PR card and being years in breach of the PR RO, there is some chance that, at the PoE, CBSA will not even conduct a secondary examination as to compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, and will allow entry without issuing a 44(1) Report. That chance is fairly easy to quantify: not good. Some but not a good chance.

PRs traveling with a valid PR card have a significantly better chance of being waived into Canada without a referral to secondary, let alone a PR RO compliance examination in secondary, let alone getting reported. Quantifying that chance in the abstract is impossible. At the least it depends on the individual and that individual's particular circumstances, including history but also including a range of more immediate factors. It can also depend on what the PIL officer (the one in the booth) asks in particular. (Reminders: misrepresentations are criminal, and even if not prosecuted as a crime they can have serious consequences relative to PR status; evasiveness is more easily recognized by border officers than many anticipate, and being evasive elevates the risk of things going in a more difficult if not challenging direction.)

How long the PR has been outside Canada tends to be a big factor, so far as we can discern. And, of course, this is a key factor, the key factor, if there is a referral to secondary and the returning PR is questioned about PR RO compliance.

The expiration date for the PR card can be a big factor. The PRC's expiration date has no relevance to calculating compliance with the PR RO, but it can influence whether an officer discerns cause for concern about PR RO compliance. A recently issued PRC, for example, signals that IRCC has recently made a positive determination that the PR is in compliance with the PR RO. A PRC which expires soon might be perceived as a reason to make further inquiry to verify whether the returning PR is in compliance with the PR RO. Other than the recently issued PRC situation (in which there is a good chance of being waived across the border), however, many other factors are likely to be far more important than the PRC expiration date, in terms of whether the border officers see reason to question PR RO compliance and if so, how that turns out.

Bottom-line:
-- the longer it has been since last time in Canada, the worse one's chances
-- the more in breach of the PR RO overall, the worse one's chances

 

[hidden.p3arl]

I just want to share my experience. I am already in canada now.

I entered canada by car and the officer let me in . He did not even report me eventhough I did not meet 730 days obligations.

I also spoke to my lawyer in Toronto before I entered Canada and she said that even though I have an expired PR card and I did not meet 730 days, they cannot send me back to USA. They HAVE to let me in. Here is her explanation : It just like you have a expired passport, but it does not mean you are not a citizen of your country. However, there is a possibility that they will report you and usually takes sometime (usually 1 year ) to show up to the court and appeal your case.

Well, usually you have to respond within 60 days, but the actual day you will go to the court will take sometime and if by that time you can establish your job, etc , there is always a chance that they will let you live in Canada.
this lawyer even gave me her phone number incase they will not let me in.

hope this helps for others. I am glad I made it without any problem. I take that as a miracle

and thanks again for all advices.



I am glad that I made it and I take this

hiii,
can i get your lawyer number? i'm outside canada living in saudi arabia. im going to apply for PRTD next month.
please help!!

 

[Mysongoku]

Again, I have had no recent personal experience related to this.

Of course there is "a chance," but it would be very, very difficult to quantify that "chance," even relative to broad generalizations, noting however it is probably safe to guess that for a PR in breach of the PR RO, the risk of being reported ranges from elevated to high or very high, depending on personal circumstances.


Longer Answer:

"Any chance" is an incredibly broad concept. Even without a valid PR card and being years in breach of the PR RO, there is some chance that, at the PoE, CBSA will not even conduct a secondary examination as to compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, and will allow entry without issuing a 44(1) Report. That chance is fairly easy to quantify: not good. Some but not a good chance.

PRs traveling with a valid PR card have a significantly better chance of being waived into Canada without a referral to secondary, let alone a PR RO compliance examination in secondary, let alone getting reported. Quantifying that chance in the abstract is impossible. At the least it depends on the individual and that individual's particular circumstances, including history but also including a range of more immediate factors. It can also depend on what the PIL officer (the one in the booth) asks in particular. (Reminders: misrepresentations are criminal, and even if not prosecuted as a crime they can have serious consequences relative to PR status; evasiveness is more easily recognized by border officers than many anticipate, and being evasive elevates the risk of things going in a more difficult if not challenging direction.)

How long the PR has been outside Canada tends to be a big factor, so far as we can discern. And, of course, this is a key factor, the key factor, if there is a referral to secondary and the returning PR is questioned about PR RO compliance.

The expiration date for the PR card can be a big factor. The PRC's expiration date has no relevance to calculating compliance with the PR RO, but it can influence whether an officer discerns cause for concern about PR RO compliance. A recently issued PRC, for example, signals that IRCC has recently made a positive determination that the PR is in compliance with the PR RO. A PRC which expires soon might be perceived as a reason to make further inquiry to verify whether the returning PR is in compliance with the PR RO. Other than the recently issued PRC situation (in which there is a good chance of being waived across the border), however, many other factors are likely to be far more important than the PRC expiration date, in terms of whether the border officers see reason to question PR RO compliance and if so, how that turns out.

Bottom-line:
-- the longer it has been since last time in Canada, the worse one's chances
-- the more in breach of the PR RO overall, the worse one's chances

Please help me clarify my situation-
My sister got married with a Canadian when I was about 11years old, and she applied my mom and I to come to Canada. I finally moved to Canada when I was 13, stayed until 2002 which I was 19years old because I have some family issue that I need to be back to my home country. My mom applied the citizenship for me and herself in 2001 which I was 18 and still in Canada, so when I received the letter for me to pick up a PR card and take the citizenship test I was already in my home country, so I did not respond to them, and could not show up. At the end, my mom got the citizenship, and I stayed in my home country still. Now I am 34 years old.

Here is my questions
1. Am I still a PR? I never got a PR card, and I only have a landing paper with my mom’s name on it. And is there anyway that I can make sure?

2. If I am a PR, according to the post above I suppose I can drive into Canada via US, but if I use a different passport than the one that I used to have to enter as a visitor. Would that work for the 2 years RO?

Please help, thanks

 

[Mysongoku]

I mean I have a landing paper with my name on it from 20 yrs ago when I first get to Canada.

Please give me advise, thanks all

 

[Buletruck]

1) yes, you are still have permenent residence.

2) not quite that simple. To enter Canada as a visitor, you would need a TRV. As a PR, you aren’t eligible to have one. You would need to identify yourself as a PR when you enter (it’s the law). They would need to verify that and that would bring your absense from Canada into question. 16 years is a long time and you would probably be reported for RO.

 

[dpenabill]

1. Am I still a PR? I never got a PR card, and I only have a landing paper with my mom’s name on it. And is there anyway that I can make sure?

2. If I am a PR, according to the post above I suppose I can drive into Canada via US, but if I use a different passport than the one that I used to have to enter as a visitor. Would that work for the 2 years RO?

Overall: the information you disclose does not reveal what your current status is (landing paper is vague and ambiguous and in context of your other descriptions not clear in multiple respects).

My sense is that you would need to make a formal application to the IRCC or CBSA to definitively ascertain what your current status is, such as by just showing up at a PoE and seeking entry (while many do not realize it, just showing up at the PoE is considered to be an application seeking permission to physically enter Canada, and even Canadian citizens are required to make an application to enter Canada in order to legally enter Canada). Problem, of course, is that if you are a PR, any application to CBSA or IRCC is likely to trigger a formal decision to terminate that status, given the extent of your absence from Canada.

As noted otherwise and often in this forum, there is some chance that a traveler with a visa-exempt passport who arrives at a land border crossing entry point (PoE) into Canada might be waived into Canada without being examined as to PR status or compliance with the PR Residency Obligation. Sure, there are ways to improve the odds some, or more to how these things tend to go, lots of ways to reduce the odds considerably (arriving with a trailer full of household goods or otherwise loudly display an intention to move into Canada to live, for one obvious example). Beyond the obvious, and oft discussed in this and other forums (like not showing up at the border with a trailer full of household goods), I tend to not go into how to manipulate the system. Which leads to some caveats:


Caveats:

I am no expert. I am not qualified to give personal advice. I attempt to avoid giving personal advice -- sure, some slips through the cracks now and then, and of course some expressions of advice are in the nature of don't-sleep-in-the-rain, such as statements which are much like answers to FAQs or otherwise well-known (example: if a person is indeed a PR and in breach of the PR RO, but allowed to enter Canada without being reported for a breach of the PR RO, obvious advice is to not make any application to IRCC and do not leave Canada until fully in compliance with the PR RO).

I also have a bias. I tend to favour and address what is likely to work best most of the time. Attempting to skirt or manipulate the system does NOT tend to work well most of the time. There are obviously some exceptions in the individual case, but again my focus is on what is likely to work best most of the time.

 

[Mysongoku]

Thank you Buletruck and dpenabill for answering my questions,

I was just confused, because my landing paper number on the right top corner is the same with my mom’s. and my mom’s paper has a chop on it after she became a citizen saying “the holder is no longer a PR” so I am wondering if it would affect the one that I am holding as it has the same number.

Secondly, so you guys are saying if I go into Canada via US by a rental car using a visa exempted passport, I still have to show them that I am a PR? I cannot just tell them I am a visitor to the country?

 

[Buletruck]

I cannot just tell them I am a visitor to the country?

In my opinion, that’s misrepresentation and can come come back to bite you at a later date. Should you choose to renew your PR at a later date, you have to provide the dates you were in Canada. This would lead them to the entry as a visitor, and a precarious situation to be in, at best. Your entry into Canada is recorded. If CBSA asks your intention, telling them you are a visitor, when in fact you intend to reestablish residence is a lie and misrepresentation. They do have the means to cross reference information, even if they haven’t seen your new passport.

 

[Mysongoku]

In my opinion, that’s misrepresentation and can come come back to bite you at a later date. Should you choose to renew your PR at a later date, you have to provide the dates you were in Canada. This would lead them to the entry as a visitor, and a precarious situation to be in, at best. Your entry into Canada is recorded. If CBSA asks your intention, telling them you are a visitor, when in fact you intend to reestablish residence is a lie and misrepresentation. They do have the means to cross reference information, even if they haven’t seen your new passport.

Thanks again Buletruck,

I understand now, so it is not even worth trying to do the “sneak back”
Then in my case, is there any way my mom or sister can reapply me back to the country? Or should I just give up my PR?

 

[Mysongoku]

In my opinion, that’s misrepresentation and can come come back to bite you at a later date. Should you choose to renew your PR at a later date, you have to provide the dates you were in Canada. This would lead them to the entry as a visitor, and a precarious situation to be in, at best. Your entry into Canada is recorded. If CBSA asks your intention, telling them you are a visitor, when in fact you intend to reestablish residence is a lie and misrepresentation. They do have the means to cross reference information, even if they haven’t seen your new passport.

Just wondering what could possibly happen if they find out later on that I have misrepresentations? What’s the penalty? Instead of lying I think it’s more like “they didn’t ask so I didn’t tell” kinda thing if I go as planned. And of course if they ask about my PR I will tell.

 

[Buletruck]

Again, my perspective, but if a CBSA officer asks why you are coming to Canada and you say visitor, when you intend to stay permenently, that’s misrepresentation. You have intentionally mislead the CBSA officer. And it does seem to come back and bite people at pr renewal or citizenship time.
If you are found to have misrepresented yourself, it can lead to the loss of your pr and in some extreme circumstance, citizenship. Lying to CBSA and IRCC is something they take very seriously. They may overlook RO, but they seldom seem to miss a chance go after misrepresentation.

 

[Mysongoku]

Thanks Buletruck, thank you for the answer, that really helped me understand. But one more question before I give up.

Would a H&C PRTD possible? I have a 65 yrs old father in my home country living with me that has diabetes, if I can get some of his medication dox., and say that I have to stay to take care of him. Would that even stand a little bit of chance? Instead of leaving my PR pending or losing it by renouncing it anyway, does it worth a try?

 

[Buletruck]

You could try for H&C. It's all very subjective as to whether they will accept it or not, similar to crossing the land border. It all depends on who reviews the application. The issue with a PRTD is that it allows them the time to sit back and really scrutinize the reasons (there is no timeline for a response on a PRTD). When you deal with a cross border entry, they tendency seems to lean towards less scrutiny.
Again, from my perspective, with an H&C application, the first thing that would cross my mind (were I the reviewing officer) is "what has changed now with your fathers condition that allows you to come back, when it prevented you before this returning"?
Ultimately, I wouldn't recommend renouncing a PR to anyone, with out first making an attempt at re-entry. Personally, I would attempt a land crossing first, before a PRTD (for the reasons above). If it works great, if it doesn't at least you tried. Be aware, that with any entry into Canada, even if you get in successfully, it brings your residency under scrutiny every time. So if your father is sick, be prepared not to see him for several years until you are back in RO compliance.