PRTD Alternatives

[amusingfirefly]

Hi all,

I became a PR on landing at Pearson airport in Toronto on Nov 25th 2016. After that I didn't receive my PR card till mid-December when I flew out of the country and visiting India now. I was planning for my roommate to FedEx me the PR card once he receives it at my Toronto address, but it is looking increasingly unlikely that it will be done by the time I have to return (end of Jan 2017). I'm now thinking of alternatives on how I can go back. Please note I also have a PG Work Permit on my Passport which is valid until Sept 2017.

I know that the legit option is the PRTD that I can apply at VFS New Delhi. However, I have no idea what the processing time for that is, and I don't want to risk not having my passport with me come 28th January when I fly back. So I am thinking of the following idea :

I have to make a stop on my way to Toronto at Belfast where I will spend a few days. I'm thinking is it possible I can show the Work Permit that I have which is expiring in Sept 2017 when I go to the airport in Belfast to board the flight to Toronto? If so, I can get on the flight, and when I land in Toronto, I can tell them that I only have my landing documents coz I didn't get my PR card before flying. From what I understand, CIC doesn't have any problem in not travelling out of the country with PR card - it's just the airline companies that have that problem.

Thanks for the help in advance!

 

[ttrajan]

You will get PRTD in 1 to 2 weeks time through VFS India.

 

[amusingfirefly]

You will get PRTD in 1 to 2 weeks time through VFS India.

You mean I will have the passport in my hands within 2 weeks?

 

[zardoz]

Hi all,

I became a PR on landing at Pearson airport in Toronto on Nov 25th 2016. After that I didn't receive my PR card till mid-December when I flew out of the country and visiting India now. I was planning for my roommate to FedEx me the PR card once he receives it at my Toronto address, but it is looking increasingly unlikely that it will be done by the time I have to return (end of Jan 2017). I'm now thinking of alternatives on how I can go back. Please note I also have a PG Work Permit on my Passport which is valid until Sept 2017.

I know that the legit option is the PRTD that I can apply at VFS New Delhi. However, I have no idea what the processing time for that is, and I don't want to risk not having my passport with me come 28th January when I fly back. So I am thinking of the following idea :

I have to make a stop on my way to Toronto at Belfast where I will spend a few days. I'm thinking is it possible I can show the Work Permit that I have which is expiring in Sept 2017 when I go to the airport in Belfast to board the flight to Toronto? If so, I can get on the flight, and when I land in Toronto, I can tell them that I only have my landing documents coz I didn't get my PR card before flying. From what I understand, CIC doesn't have any problem in not travelling out of the country with PR card - it's just the airline companies that have that problem.

Thanks for the help in advance!

Your work permit is voided by the process of becoming a "landed" permanent resident. The same applies to any Canadian visa in your passport. Therefore, your chances of convincing the airline to allow you to check in or board a flight are limited and you should expect to be refused. The new electronic checks on eligibility to travel have closed at least some of the loopholes.

 

[Rob_TO]

Hi all,

I became a PR on landing at Pearson airport in Toronto on Nov 25th 2016. After that I didn't receive my PR card till mid-December when I flew out of the country and visiting India now. I was planning for my roommate to FedEx me the PR card once he receives it at my Toronto address, but it is looking increasingly unlikely that it will be done by the time I have to return (end of Jan 2017). I'm now thinking of alternatives on how I can go back. Please note I also have a PG Work Permit on my Passport which is valid until Sept 2017.

I know that the legit option is the PRTD that I can apply at VFS New Delhi. However, I have no idea what the processing time for that is, and I don't want to risk not having my passport with me come 28th January when I fly back. So I am thinking of the following idea :

I have to make a stop on my way to Toronto at Belfast where I will spend a few days. I'm thinking is it possible I can show the Work Permit that I have which is expiring in Sept 2017 when I go to the airport in Belfast to board the flight to Toronto? If so, I can get on the flight, and when I land in Toronto, I can tell them that I only have my landing documents coz I didn't get my PR card before flying. From what I understand, CIC doesn't have any problem in not travelling out of the country with PR card - it's just the airline companies that have that problem.

Thanks for the help in advance!

There have been recent reports here of people successfully boarding airplanes with TRVs obtained prior to them becoming PR. Apparently CBSA does not automatically cancel them on the spot after becoming PR. However problems in your case are:
1. Visas can be cancelled at any time after landing as PR. One may go to the airport with a visa in their passport, but find when the airline cross checks the number it is invalid so would be denied boarding.

2. I think (not entirely sure, someone can correct if needed) that a PGWP on it's own is not a valid travel document. One would need a valid VISA (like TRV) to accompany the PGWP in order to board a plane with it. Check if the PGWP has "not valid for travel" written on it.

Alternative solution is to travel to USA, and cross land border into Canada where neither PR card not PR TD is required to prove your PR status to CBSA.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

I have to make a stop on my way to Toronto at Belfast where I will spend a few days. I'm thinking is it possible I can show the Work Permit that I have which is expiring in Sept 2017 when I go to the airport in Belfast to board the flight to Toronto?

In order to board a plane to Canada, a person must have a Canadian passport, an eTA, a valid TRV, a PR card or a PRTD. Having a work permit will not let you board.

If your passport still has a TRV showing as valid, it is possible that you will be able to board. There has been a least one recent report of someone doing that.

 

[dpenabill]

Hi all,

I became a PR on landing at Pearson airport in Toronto on Nov 25th 2016. After that I didn't receive my PR card till mid-December when I flew out of the country and visiting India now. I was planning for my roommate to FedEx me the PR card once he receives it at my Toronto address, but it is looking increasingly unlikely that it will be done by the time I have to return (end of Jan 2017). I'm now thinking of alternatives on how I can go back. Please note I also have a PG Work Permit on my Passport which is valid until Sept 2017.

I know that the legit option is the PRTD that I can apply at VFS New Delhi. However, I have no idea what the processing time for that is, and I don't want to risk not having my passport with me come 28th January when I fly back. So I am thinking of the following idea :

I have to make a stop on my way to Toronto at Belfast where I will spend a few days. I'm thinking is it possible I can show the Work Permit that I have which is expiring in Sept 2017 when I go to the airport in Belfast to board the flight to Toronto? If so, I can get on the flight, and when I land in Toronto, I can tell them that I only have my landing documents coz I didn't get my PR card before flying. From what I understand, CIC doesn't have any problem in not travelling out of the country with PR card - it's just the airline companies that have that problem.

Thanks for the help in advance!

There Is NO Need to Worry About What to Show at PoE Upon Arrival

Upon arrival in Canada, your passport and landing papers will suffice.

In general terms, this part of what you say is correct:
"CIC doesn't have any problem in not travelling out of the country with PR card - it's just the airline companies that have that problem."

I concur in the observations offered by zardoz.

I have no cause to doubt the post by ttrajan, but I am not familiar with particular PR TD application processing timelines.

While I agree there is some possible leeway, for PRs, which I have discussed in depth elsewhere going back to posts in early December, I disagree with the characterization of the limited reports of this posted by Rob_TO and canuck_in_uk.

(For example, it is unknown whether there was a "board" or "no board" response from the IAPI system when Meganes presented a passport attendant check-in at the airline, or whether the airline exercised some discretion in the event of a "no board" response and issued a boarding pass nonetheless . . . all that can be concluded from that report is that at least one PR has experienced some leeway and did not need to have a PRC or PR TD, particularly given the report by Meganes that no questions were asked . . .)


Safe Approach:

For PRs the safe approach is straight-forward enough: assume the prescribed document rule for PRs will be enforced, and pursuant to that --
-- do not travel without a valid PR card, or
-- plan on obtaining a PR TD while abroad, or
-- travel via the U.S. to return to Canada by private land transportation (if this last option is available, recognizing that it is not an option for many PRs)

Thus, for your situation, as zardoz suggests, a PR TD would be the best approach and may be your only approach (if traveling via the U.S. is not an available option for you).

As of today however, as you apprehend, you could be cutting it close in terms of obtaining a PR TD before your flight, even assuming the report by ttrajan is accurate.

Media stories suggest many Canadians (citizens and PRs) have indeed been denied boarding flights to Canada since the IAPI system was actually in practice implemented November 10, 2016. So most indications are that the PR rule, requiring PRs to present either a valid PR card or a PR TD, is likely to be enforced.


But yes, there are indications that some leeway is possible.

The scope of that possibility, however, is uncertain, perhaps impossible to forecast unless and until there is more reliable information.

I have discussed some more or less likely factors which may determine whether a recently landed PR might be cleared to board a flight to Canada in other topics (again, I disagree with what I believe is an erroneous extrapolation from the experience reported by Meganes).

While in those discussions I suggest that the recently landed PR with a CoPR, trying to board a return flight to Canada, probably has about as good a chance as any PR would, the caveat is that there is no way of forecasting how it will actually go until check-in for the flight, except to recognize that there is a substantial if not high risk of being denied boarding if the PR cannot present a PRC or PR TD.

Thus, if you fly to Belfast without obtaining a PR TD first, you may have to spend long enough there to obtain a PR TD before you will be able to board a flight to Canada.

If you would be kind enough to return and report here how your trip went, that will be appreciated. Perhaps your input could help provide better information for the next person with a similar query.



FWIW: Other relevant discussions and sources, if interested:

If you are interested in digging through how the IAPI process works and assessing your chances for yourself, see other discussions about this and the sources linked in those discussions, starting perhaps here:

Below I go into much depth about the prospect a recently landed PR may be able to board a flight to Canada without presenting either a valid PR card or PR Travel Document. The experience reported by Meganes illustrates that this is at least possible.

[follow message link for full post which includes numerous citations to official sources]

 

[canuck_in_uk]

While I agree there is some possible leeway, for PRs, which I have discussed in depth elsewhere going back to posts in early December, I disagree with the characterization of the limited reports of this posted by Rob_TO and canuck_in_uk.

A PR recently boarded a plane using their TRV which was still showing as valid in their passport. Rob and I have therefore stated that it might be possible for someone else to do this. You have also stated something to that effect in one of your other long-winded posts. So you disagree with yourself?

 

[dpenabill]

A PR recently boarded a plane using their TRV which was still showing as valid in their passport. Rob and I have therefore stated that it might be possible for someone else to do this. You have also stated something to that effect in one of your other long-winded posts. So you disagree with yourself?

As I said, which I believe was plain enough, I disagree with your characterization . . . in particular, there is nothing in the report which suggests that a TRV in a passport made or makes any difference. There is no hint in that report that there was a "no board" response from the IAPI system. But the report is not detailed enough to discern much at all about the screening before a boarding pass was issued. As the report by Meganes illustrates, being more focused on the particulars of the PoE transaction, many PRs in similar situations are more focused on what is required or involved in the PoE screening, and some still tend to report more about the pre-boarding screening of documents than the process of check-in and being issued a boarding pass. Meganes does not even mention presenting a passport at any time prior to boarding the flight, but the key to being allowed to board is the passport number, for which the IAPI system will give a "board" or "no board" response.

It is not at all similar to the process prior to November 10, 2016 . . . regarding which, yes for a long while I thought that system was at least partially implemented, going back well before 2016, but as the recently published official sources illuminate, IAPI was not activated until November 10, 2016. I have appropriately adjusted my observations based on this latest information.

In particular, the status screening is now done at check-in, before any boarding pass is issued, not when airline personnel screen documents shortly prior to boarding. All travelers (with minimal exceptions) must be screened using the IAPI system.

Long-winded or not, my more in-depth posts reflect doing the homework: I do the research, I examine and compare many sources of information, I share citation and links to official sources, and I make a concerted effort to carefully analyze many sources of available information, including anecdotal reports.

If and when I guess, I acknowledge that, and usually why.

So, I do believe, and have explained carefully why, there is the possibility of some leeway for recently landed PRs but I do not agree that the Meganes report supports any conclusion about whether there was even a "no board" response from the IAPI system, let alone concluding that the airline used its discretion to allow boarding despite a "no board" response, let alone what in particular such discretion was based on if that is why Meganes was cleared to board . . . after all, if the IAPI system responded "no board" it would be very likely the airline would at least ask some questions about status before exercising discretion to allow boarding and Meganes reports NO questions were asked (and of course that is more in the nature of a conclusion than actual description, because it is virtually impossible to go through the check-in process without answering any questions at all).

Beyond that it gets complicated, for which I have repeatedly linked the more thorough, and sourced, discussions about this, for whoever is interested and willing to pursue an understanding about how things actually work.

 

[Rob_TO]

A PR recently boarded a plane using their TRV which was still showing as valid in their passport. Rob and I have therefore stated that it might be possible for someone else to do this. You have also stated something to that effect in one of your other long-winded posts. So you disagree with yourself?

Ya there have been a few reports of this happening, and other newly landed PRs have posted they've successfully traveled back to Canada on visas that were issued before they become PRs. One of them even questioned the airline on it and the airline told them the visa was still valid in their system, and they boarded with no problem or other questions.

So again people can take these anecdotal reports for what their worth. Just because a few people were successful, doesn't mean everyone will be. Traveling on a TRV that was supposed to be cancelled when you landed as PR, is inherently risky. The system can change at a moments notice to force the airlines to block these travelers.

Plus we also know that all the rules and regulations one can read are great in theory but in reality things sometimes work differently. Anecdotal reports are always interesting to see how these rules are being applied (or not applied) in real life situations.

 

[amusingfirefly]

In order to board a plane to Canada, a person must have a Canadian passport, an eTA, a valid TRV, a PR card or a PRTD. Having a work permit will not let you board.

If your passport still has a TRV showing as valid, it is possible that you will be able to board. There has been a least one recent report of someone doing that.

Yes I know that. What I really meant by having a Work Permit was that I have a valid TRV along with it too. It's the TRV which I had with the WP.

 

[amusingfirefly]

There Is NO Need to Worry About What to Show at PoE Upon Arrival

Upon arrival in Canada, your passport and landing papers will suffice.

In general terms, this part of what you say is correct:
"CIC doesn't have any problem in not travelling out of the country with PR card - it's just the airline companies that have that problem."

I concur in the observations offered by zardoz.

I have no cause to doubt the post by ttrajan, but I am not familiar with particular PR TD application processing timelines.

While I agree there is some possible leeway, for PRs, which I have discussed in depth elsewhere going back to posts in early December, I disagree with the characterization of the limited reports of this posted by Rob_TO and canuck_in_uk.

(For example, it is unknown whether there was a "board" or "no board" response from the IAPI system when Meganes presented a passport attendant check-in at the airline, or whether the airline exercised some discretion in the event of a "no board" response and issued a boarding pass nonetheless . . . all that can be concluded from that report is that at least one PR has experienced some leeway and did not need to have a PRC or PR TD, particularly given the report by Meganes that no questions were asked . . .)


Safe Approach:

For PRs the safe approach is straight-forward enough: assume the prescribed document rule for PRs will be enforced, and pursuant to that --
-- do not travel without a valid PR card, or
-- plan on obtaining a PR TD while abroad, or
-- travel via the U.S. to return to Canada by private land transportation (if this last option is available, recognizing that it is not an option for many PRs)

Thus, for your situation, as zardoz suggests, a PR TD would be the best approach and may be your only approach (if traveling via the U.S. is not an available option for you).

As of today however, as you apprehend, you could be cutting it close in terms of obtaining a PR TD before your flight, even assuming the report by ttrajan is accurate.

Media stories suggest many Canadians (citizens and PRs) have indeed been denied boarding flights to Canada since the IAPI system was actually in practice implemented November 10, 2016. So most indications are that the PR rule, requiring PRs to present either a valid PR card or a PR TD, is likely to be enforced.


But yes, there are indications that some leeway is possible.

The scope of that possibility, however, is uncertain, perhaps impossible to forecast unless and until there is more reliable information.

I have discussed some more or less likely factors which may determine whether a recently landed PR might be cleared to board a flight to Canada in other topics (again, I disagree with what I believe is an erroneous extrapolation from the experience reported by Meganes).

While in those discussions I suggest that the recently landed PR with a CoPR, trying to board a return flight to Canada, probably has about as good a chance as any PR would, the caveat is that there is no way of forecasting how it will actually go until check-in for the flight, except to recognize that there is a substantial if not high risk of being denied boarding if the PR cannot present a PRC or PR TD.

Thus, if you fly to Belfast without obtaining a PR TD first, you may have to spend long enough there to obtain a PR TD before you will be able to board a flight to Canada.

If you would be kind enough to return and report here how your trip went, that will be appreciated. Perhaps your input could help provide better information for the next person with a similar query.



FWIW: Other relevant discussions and sources, if interested:

If you are interested in digging through how the IAPI process works and assessing your chances for yourself, see other discussions about this and the sources linked in those discussions, starting perhaps here:

Thanks, dpenabill, for the comprehensive response. I eventually have decided to push back my return to Canada and applied for a PRTD just to be on the safe side. I appreciate your help in viewing this from all angles. I had already seen some of your other threads.

I think I agree with the others and you - that it is indeed possible to go to Canada only with my old TRV and WP with me which are not expired according to the date on them, but that I am not guaranteed to have no problems.

Honestly though, I think this whole system is ridiculous. I don't understand why it takes over 2 months to print a card and ship it to someone when they are a PR already. I don't understand why if someone is a PR and don't have a card, they can not return because Airlines don't want to let them go. If they are indeed enforcing the ETA and other electronic verification means, they should very well be able to verify that I am indeed a PR and let me go to Canada anyways. This whole system, just like many other government systems, is very outdated and causes unnecessary worries, costs, and confusion.

I'll update you guys when I receive my PRTD.

 

[amusingfirefly]

Hi all,

Thanks for the very useful information and advice on this topic. It helped me a lot and I eventually decided to go for the safe alternative - i.e., change my date of return to some time in February and apply for the PRTD here in New Delhi. I applied on 16th January 2017, and am yet to receive any notification of success. I will update the status here once it is done.

As I mention above, I think this whole system is ridiculous and needs an overhaul. The whole thing about Visa is outdated. All people should have is a passport, and the airline companies/immigration authorities/etc should have access to an online system which has records of the permissions/visas that the passport has. That way there can be no tampering of visas or weird ridiculous things like this when someone is a PR and they can't go back to the place where they are a PR. All because people can't print a plastic card for 2 months. I can't believe this is happening in the 21st century.

This is similar to my experience with getting my Work Permit. While the usual processing time was about 2 weeks, back in 2014, my work permit took about 2 months to come, and I almost lost a job offer due to it. What is the reason you might ask? I called CIC during that time and they told me that the one office (and yes there is only one office) that prints the Work Permit document in Canada had only one printer that did it - and it was malfunctioning, and hadn't been repaired for 3 weeks. (!)

 

[amusingfirefly]

Done and received my passport back on 30th Jan 2017. Processing and everything was done within 2 weeks and was ready for pickup.

 

[ttrajan]

Did you apply though VFS India?